Combat advantage on enemies looking away

[taza]

There is a problem here and it does not have to do with hiding from an opponent. YOU are the one running the game, not the player of the rogue character. As such you are in control of rules adjudication and if you say that he can't do something then he can't. Even if the rules say otherwise. I refer you to page 32 of the DMG for a suggestion of what to do if you've made a decision about a rule and a player wants to argue about rules.

I figured something like this would come up. Aside from the fact that there are obviously different approaches to DMing (Runestar's comments cover the opposing view quite effectively), this is the best way of dealing with this particular player. Should I respond to this rogue with simply "I'm the DM, I know how the game is played, do as I say," he would throw a tantrum and probably eventually leave the game.

Hmmm... actually, now that I say that out loud it sounds like an excellent outcome

In this situation, I blame myself for not realizing the CA issue would come up and preparing for it before the game

 

[taza]

That's not what I meant. I didn't suggest bending the rules, but rather when he's not actually in combat, let him occasionally sneak up behind the guards (or whatever) and shiv 'em, staying completely in line with the Stealth skill. In combat he needs to follow the rules; but since you get to declare when he's able to sneak up behind a guy outside combat, you should let him use that tactic from time to time.

Ah, yes, I agree completely. Hell, the first time he did it I'd probably reward him with an action point for realizing there's an alternative to just walking up, hoping he beats the guard's initiative, then using First Strike.

 

[Duelpersonality]

This is a bit of a tangent, but it's sort of related.

Do any other DMs make some NPCs "pre-combat minions?" In other words, if a member of the party can attack a creature (within reason, of course--this wouldn't apply to dragons or trolls, obviously) before it notices them, you treat the creature as a minon. If they fail their stealth check or miss the attack, it goes back to being a standard enemy (unless it was a minion to begin with).

 

[WalterKovacs]

This is a bit of a tangent, but it's sort of related.

Do any other DMs make some NPCs "pre-combat minions?" In other words, if a member of the party can attack a creature (within reason, of course--this wouldn't apply to dragons or trolls, obviously) before it notices them, you treat the creature as a minon. If they fail their stealth check or miss the attack, it goes back to being a standard enemy (unless it was a minion to begin with).

I might consider some variation of the coup the gras rules. If they hit, they automatically critical, then if the damage is greater than or equal to their bloodied value they die. Of course the condititions for getting a pre-combat hit vs. having a suprise round is much harder. The rogue [most likely to be sneaking around] would have a very good chance of killing with a coup de gras thanks to the sneak attack damage.

 

[CovertOps]

I think the best option for a player like this is to shift the arguement and put the player back on the defensive. What I mean by this (since you seem to be saying you have other times where this player tries to bend the rules) is take his arguement and reverse it, then make him prove HIS case. In this example his arguement is "If he's looking at something across the room, he can't see me." Make the player PROVE that the creature is indeed looking across the room at something else AND that doing so (by the rules) causes the creature to NOT see his PC. This is the wonderful thing about exceptions based rules. If the rules don't specifically say you get CA you don't get it.

 

[Duelpersonality]

I might consider some variation of the coup the gras rules. If they hit, they automatically critical, then if the damage is greater than or equal to their bloodied value they die. Of course the condititions for getting a pre-combat hit vs. having a suprise round is much harder. The rogue [most likely to be sneaking around] would have a very good chance of killing with a coup de gras thanks to the sneak attack damage.

That could be a good alternative. The rogue in my second group could probably pull this off with about as much frequency as the pre-combat minion method. Let's see, that's 27-32 damage on a hit with her favorite power at level 5. A quick check of level 5 monsters shows a range of somewhere around 25-35 bloodied value, with Human Guards (a common foe in that particular game) coming in at 23. Interesting...

How about the rangers in my groups: 29-34 (32-54 for one!) damage on twin strike, assuming both attacks hit. Yikes. Thankfully the heavy hitter is in full plate and unlikely to do much sneaking.