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D&D 5E Combat as war, sport, or ??

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Building off my previous three-axis model, some analyses of various combinations thereof.

To recap, three axes: Pragmatic vs Heroic (very roughly, "fighting dirty" vs "playing fair"), Strategic vs Tactical (very roughly, "logistics and campaigning" vs "maneuvers and synergies"), and Narrative vs Challenge (very roughly, "revealing/discovering lore and story via combat" vs "overcoming difficult obstacles via combat.") All of these are only "axes" in a loose sense, in that a game can feature stuff from both sides; instead, think of it more as estimating the rough average of a given game, so one that has some strategic elements but lots of tactical elements would be moderately tactical.

Pragmatic Strategic Challenge: The classical mode of D&D, what is often referred to as "Gygaxian" or "player skill" play. Gameplay is structured in such a way as to present difficult obstacles, some perilously so, which the players must overcome with wit, guile, and resourcefulness. It is precision-designed to expect out-of-the-box thinking and comprehensive preparation on the players' parts. Creative thinking in this mode centers on (more or less) finding ways to metaphorically "break the rules," meaning the rules of engagement, because if one brazenly attacks head-on, defeat is essentially guaranteed in many cases. Instead, the players are rewarded more (or punished less) for subverting the enemy's preparations, sneaking through the Great Wall rather than trying to pierce it or destroy it.
However, this style risks becoming stale if play becomes too consistent, what I refer to as the "standard operating procedures" problem. Excessively defaulting to well-made SOPs removes several layers of the challenge. This is where players can "optimize the fun out" by the perfectly-valid search for reliable, effective countermeasures to expected problems and powerful, general tools/strategies/behaviors that, even if they don't guarantee success, certainly make it way more likely that one will succeed. (In effect, developing the technology of strategic theory within the confines of the game.) Sadly, a common response to the SOP problem is DM-player arms races, which mostly just serve to frustrate both sides. A better answer is usually to, as Gygax did, create entirely new incentive structures (the "domain play" transition) so that the old SOPs are still technically useful in their domain, that domain is just revealed to be more limited than expected.

Heroic Tactical Challenge: The mode flirted with by 3e and fully committed to in 4e. Player characters are basically fantasy action protagonists, Big Damn Heroes to use the trope term. The focus is on the tension and excitement of round-by-round conflict, where a smart move or a foolish blunder can turn the tide of a critical battle. Gameplay is structured so as to reward teamwork, situational awareness, exploitation of interlocking gameplay elements, spatial awareness/terrain exploitation, and tempo. Creative thinking focuses on predicting the actions the enemy will take, setting up useful combinations of effects, and altering the round-by-round incentives for both enemies and allies alike. Instead of modifying the rules of engagement, one modifies the field of engagement, or the participants therein.
Of course, the problems here are obvious and well-trodden, but in the interest of fairness, I will lay them out. Firstly, a failure to actually provide the required texture: combats on empty flat planes or uniform straight hallways or the like. This flattens the experience, leaving little to do but drop your strongest effects, repeating until the fight ends. Secondly, a failure to offer variety. Because centerpiece of this experience is the enemies themselves, especially the actions they take and their choices and incentives, it is critical to keep them feeling fresh. This requires a great degree of creativity on the DM's part, and an ability to see how mechanics can interact with each other. Finally, there is the dreaded "treadmill" problem: if the characters grow stronger and their opposition grows stronger, it is easy for things to feel like nothing has actually changed, it's just "Numbers Go Up" gameplay. Unfortunately, most of the fixes for this involve at least some injection of narrative considerations (e.g. featuring identical or near-identical enemy stat blocks over the course of a broad swathe of player levels, so the players can feel powerless early on and powerful later, after they've grown.)

Pragmatic Tactical Narrative: An unusual combination, one I'm not sure is used all that much--though I welcome examples or suggestions. (Perhaps Numenera?) I would expect this to emphasize survival, perhaps even horror. The big picture is insoluble in Lovecraftian/cosmic-horror cases, so there's no point to "strategic" play, but little picture goals can be quite achievable if one can make the savvy moment by moment moves, meaning that correct responses to individual events/stimuli remains significant. And these conflicts further the purpose of examining or illustrating the world. If we flip from Pragmatic to Heroic, then the option of something like supers gameplay comes into focus here. Alternatively, perhaps something gritty like noir, post-apoc, or cyberpunk/tech-dystopia would work: fighting individual fights and focusing on surviving this battle, this mission, with relatively little bleedover from one mission to the next.
I can see at least a main difficulty here being the question of how to maintain interest and tension within and between individual combats. Something like Shadowrun achieves this through set dressing, the whole "near-future" concept and sci-fi/fantasy mashup enabling something unexpected to pop out of the shadows or appear just around the corner. A second issue (common to all Narrative options) is that whatever theme or concept is described in, explored by, or discovered through combat has to be actually interesting in order to warrant description, exploration, or discovery. This puts heavy pressure on the GM in a completely different sense from the previous style: instead of needing creativity in mechanic design, the GM needs creativity in storytelling in order for the experience to feel rewarding.

Heroic Strategic Challenge: Exact inversion of the previous, and one I would call even more unusual--possibly even not used, since I could at least come up with some kinda-sorta examples after thinking on the previous. I suspect this would be something like a more positive spin on Dark Sun: starting off with a world that is an absolute $#!%hole you can barely survive in, with the long-running challenge of "build from hell your paradise." The hope is real (it is heroic, after all), but difficult (hence "strategic challenge.") You have to think long-term, building up reputation and infrastructure, overcoming challenges and mitigating new or unexpected complications.
Frankly, the biggest challenge here just seems to be fitting all these pieces together. I'd honestly really love to hear of anything people think might count as "heroic strategic challenge," because as it stands, I'm not sure what would qualify! Having an actual example game to pore over and examine would do wonders for finding places where it's liable to run into issues.

Obviously with 3 axes, we have 2^3 = 8 different combinations, but I'm not super interested in breaking them all down. This was more a test run to see how it handled both extant things and hypothetical ones.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Because it's like calling every guy Steve just because they share some basic physical similarities. John is Steve, Tim is Steve, Joe is Steve, etc. It would be confusing and nonsensical.

D&D is the stuff that says D&D on the cover. Other works may be D&D derived (True 20, Level Up) or D&D inspired (Conan 2d20, Monsterpunk) but they clearly aren't D&D anymore than John or Tim are named Steve.
Fair, but two wrinkles:
1. D&D is ancestral to many other games. Not just by marriage, by blood. So it's not "John is Steve, Tim is Steve." It's "John Stevenson is Steve(nson), and his cousin Tim Stevenson is Steve(nson), and their uncle Joe Stevenson is Steve(nson) etc." Your criticism still holds sway--a child isn't their parent, a descendant isn't their ancestor--but there really are ways in which one can say that John, Tim, and Joe "are Steve."
2. D&D has been a lot of things, and a lot of things that weren't "published with the official Dungeons & Dragons™ Registered Trade Mark" have been pretty wholly some bundle of those things. Pathfinder, for example, was effectively "3.75e." Labyrinth Lord is as close as one can get to recreating an older system (I forget which one.) Both of these make it pretty hard to argue that "D&D" only and exclusively refers to those things published with the phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. Again, not saying the criticism doesn't land. Just that a facile reading thereof would lead to excluding things that, at least as far as I'm concerned, cannot reasonably be excluded from the "D&D" camp.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Fair, but two wrinkles:
1. D&D is ancestral to many other games. Not just by marriage, by blood. So it's not "John is Steve, Tim is Steve." It's "John Stevenson is Steve(nson), and his cousin Tim Stevenson is Steve(nson), and their uncle Joe Stevenson is Steve(nson) etc." Your criticism still holds sway--a child isn't their parent, a descendant isn't their ancestor--but there really are ways in which one can say that John, Tim, and Joe "are Steve."
2. D&D has been a lot of things, and a lot of things that weren't "published with the official Dungeons & Dragons™ Registered Trade Mark" have been pretty wholly some bundle of those things. Pathfinder, for example, was effectively "3.75e." Labyrinth Lord is as close as one can get to recreating an older system (I forget which one.) Both of these make it pretty hard to argue that "D&D" only and exclusively refers to those things published with the phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. Again, not saying the criticism doesn't land. Just that a facile reading thereof would lead to excluding things that, at least as far as I'm concerned, cannot reasonably be excluded from the "D&D" camp.
If they mean the "D&D family" then they should say that.

Advanced Labyrinth Lord shares a lot of DNA with Rules Cyclopedia D&D. If we're discussing RC D&D and you start talking about ability scores of 19, then I'm going to ask what you're talking about. Because ALL has them but RC didn't. If you want to expand the conversation to encompass ALL, then you ought to say so. It's confusing and misleading to just start talking about ALL rules without offering context, simply because you think RC and ALL are so similar that the distinction doesn't really matter.

This isn't a no true Scottsman argument btw. I recognize that all such games are part of the D&D family (though something like Torg is an unreasonable stretch IMO, or at the very best can be viewed as an extremely distant relation) but I don't refer to them collectively as D&D because that's confusing. All of a sudden, just to be able to refer collectively to things with D&D printed on the cover, you have to now specify TSR/WOTC D&D. And the term D&D becomes so broad as to be virtually synonymous with the term RPG. To what end?
 

Advanced Labyrinth Lord shares a lot of DNA with Rules Cyclopedia D&D.
My first TTRPG was Rifts. It had % skills Hp attribute kind of like the 6 we know, hit points armor class and roll d20 to hit.
when I got to D&D it was very Rifts like becuse Rifts grew out of 1e and 2e...

My current favorite game (other then D&D) is TORG, that literaly got named cause they didn't have a name for there D&D like game and kept calling it the other roleplaying game... TORG The Other Roleplaying Game.

D&D was the first and you will find 60-80% of RPGs have SOME linage to D&D. That was before the OGL.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Building off my previous three-axis model, some analyses of various combinations thereof.

To recap, three axes: Pragmatic vs Heroic (very roughly, "fighting dirty" vs "playing fair"), Strategic vs Tactical (very roughly, "logistics and campaigning" vs "maneuvers and synergies"), and Narrative vs Challenge (very roughly, "revealing/discovering lore and story via combat" vs "overcoming difficult obstacles via combat.") All of these are only "axes" in a loose sense, in that a game can feature stuff from both sides; instead, think of it more as estimating the rough average of a given game, so one that has some strategic elements but lots of tactical elements would be moderately tactical.

Pragmatic Strategic Challenge: The classical mode of D&D, what is often referred to as "Gygaxian" or "player skill" play. Gameplay is structured in such a way as to present difficult obstacles, some perilously so, which the players must overcome with wit, guile, and resourcefulness. It is precision-designed to expect out-of-the-box thinking and comprehensive preparation on the players' parts. Creative thinking in this mode centers on (more or less) finding ways to metaphorically "break the rules," meaning the rules of engagement, because if one brazenly attacks head-on, defeat is essentially guaranteed in many cases. Instead, the players are rewarded more (or punished less) for subverting the enemy's preparations, sneaking through the Great Wall rather than trying to pierce it or destroy it.
However, this style risks becoming stale if play becomes too consistent, what I refer to as the "standard operating procedures" problem. Excessively defaulting to well-made SOPs removes several layers of the challenge. This is where players can "optimize the fun out" by the perfectly-valid search for reliable, effective countermeasures to expected problems and powerful, general tools/strategies/behaviors that, even if they don't guarantee success, certainly make it way more likely that one will succeed. (In effect, developing the technology of strategic theory within the confines of the game.) Sadly, a common response to the SOP problem is DM-player arms races, which mostly just serve to frustrate both sides. A better answer is usually to, as Gygax did, create entirely new incentive structures (the "domain play" transition) so that the old SOPs are still technically useful in their domain, that domain is just revealed to be more limited than expected.

Heroic Tactical Challenge: The mode flirted with by 3e and fully committed to in 4e. Player characters are basically fantasy action protagonists, Big Damn Heroes to use the trope term. The focus is on the tension and excitement of round-by-round conflict, where a smart move or a foolish blunder can turn the tide of a critical battle. Gameplay is structured so as to reward teamwork, situational awareness, exploitation of interlocking gameplay elements, spatial awareness/terrain exploitation, and tempo. Creative thinking focuses on predicting the actions the enemy will take, setting up useful combinations of effects, and altering the round-by-round incentives for both enemies and allies alike. Instead of modifying the rules of engagement, one modifies the field of engagement, or the participants therein.
Of course, the problems here are obvious and well-trodden, but in the interest of fairness, I will lay them out. Firstly, a failure to actually provide the required texture: combats on empty flat planes or uniform straight hallways or the like. This flattens the experience, leaving little to do but drop your strongest effects, repeating until the fight ends. Secondly, a failure to offer variety. Because centerpiece of this experience is the enemies themselves, especially the actions they take and their choices and incentives, it is critical to keep them feeling fresh. This requires a great degree of creativity on the DM's part, and an ability to see how mechanics can interact with each other. Finally, there is the dreaded "treadmill" problem: if the characters grow stronger and their opposition grows stronger, it is easy for things to feel like nothing has actually changed, it's just "Numbers Go Up" gameplay. Unfortunately, most of the fixes for this involve at least some injection of narrative considerations (e.g. featuring identical or near-identical enemy stat blocks over the course of a broad swathe of player levels, so the players can feel powerless early on and powerful later, after they've grown.)

Pragmatic Tactical Narrative: An unusual combination, one I'm not sure is used all that much--though I welcome examples or suggestions. (Perhaps Numenera?) I would expect this to emphasize survival, perhaps even horror. The big picture is insoluble in Lovecraftian/cosmic-horror cases, so there's no point to "strategic" play, but little picture goals can be quite achievable if one can make the savvy moment by moment moves, meaning that correct responses to individual events/stimuli remains significant. And these conflicts further the purpose of examining or illustrating the world. If we flip from Pragmatic to Heroic, then the option of something like supers gameplay comes into focus here. Alternatively, perhaps something gritty like noir, post-apoc, or cyberpunk/tech-dystopia would work: fighting individual fights and focusing on surviving this battle, this mission, with relatively little bleedover from one mission to the next.
I can see at least a main difficulty here being the question of how to maintain interest and tension within and between individual combats. Something like Shadowrun achieves this through set dressing, the whole "near-future" concept and sci-fi/fantasy mashup enabling something unexpected to pop out of the shadows or appear just around the corner. A second issue (common to all Narrative options) is that whatever theme or concept is described in, explored by, or discovered through combat has to be actually interesting in order to warrant description, exploration, or discovery. This puts heavy pressure on the GM in a completely different sense from the previous style: instead of needing creativity in mechanic design, the GM needs creativity in storytelling in order for the experience to feel rewarding.

Heroic Strategic Challenge: Exact inversion of the previous, and one I would call even more unusual--possibly even not used, since I could at least come up with some kinda-sorta examples after thinking on the previous. I suspect this would be something like a more positive spin on Dark Sun: starting off with a world that is an absolute $#!%hole you can barely survive in, with the long-running challenge of "build from hell your paradise." The hope is real (it is heroic, after all), but difficult (hence "strategic challenge.") You have to think long-term, building up reputation and infrastructure, overcoming challenges and mitigating new or unexpected complications.
Frankly, the biggest challenge here just seems to be fitting all these pieces together. I'd honestly really love to hear of anything people think might count as "heroic strategic challenge," because as it stands, I'm not sure what would qualify! Having an actual example game to pore over and examine would do wonders for finding places where it's liable to run into issues.

Obviously with 3 axes, we have 2^3 = 8 different combinations, but I'm not super interested in breaking them all down. This was more a test run to see how it handled both extant things and hypothetical ones.
I like the analysis here, but the word heroic is perhaps even worse than war or sport used in previous frameworks. The word is notorious for meaning different things to the RPG community. Some folks see heroic as in deeds done by the characters. Attempting and succeeding at things that are dangerous and risky, but for a very good cause. Others, view heroic as having power and abilities to do amazing things beyond the average person. Which is why you see a lot of comments saying things like, "X edition low level characters dont have many HP, spells, and/or abilities so it doesnt feel heroic." Also, pragmatic is very pedestrian of a term in comparison leaving the impression that it lacks luster and appeal.

I also have issue with the idea that war/strategy is "fighting dirty", and sport/tactical is "fighting fair". You could use strategy to ensure a fair fight, you could also apply tactics in an underhanded way. I believe the ideal focus is on the game design and the tools at the players disposal. There is tactics in 3E, but also strategy in 4E. It helps to look at is the mechanical design of each to see where they lean. 3E with its stacking spells, wealth of magic items, and myriad of skills. 4E with its defined roles and in combat riders. The design of each pushes toward strategy or tactics, but doesn't eliminate the opposite. 5E lacks a strong push or mechanical heft to really provide a solid experience in either, but still has both.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
My first TTRPG was Rifts. It had % skills Hp attribute kind of like the 6 we know, hit points armor class and roll d20 to hit.
when I got to D&D it was very Rifts like becuse Rifts grew out of 1e and 2e...

My current favorite game (other then D&D) is TORG, that literaly got named cause they didn't have a name for there D&D like game and kept calling it the other roleplaying game... TORG The Other Roleplaying Game.

D&D was the first and you will find 60-80% of RPGs have SOME linage to D&D. That was before the OGL.
Yeah, if we assume that D&D is to be a term meaning ~70% of the RPGs out there, then it's more or less become functionally synonymous with RPG. I'm not sure why anyone would consider that a useful evolution of the term, as opposed to referring to TSR/WOTC D&D (which is already quite broad, but still useful).
 

I like the analysis here, but the word heroic is perhaps even worse than war or sport used in previous frameworks. The word is notorious for meaning different things to the RPG community.

I also have issue with the idea that war/strategy is "fighting dirty", and sport/tactical is "fighting fair".
the hardest part about finding these things is to find terms that are not going to paint some in unfavorable light when really it is just 'how you like to play'
 

Yeah, if we assume that D&D is to be a term meaning ~70% of the RPGs out there, then it's more or less become functionally synonymous with RPG. I'm not sure why anyone would consider that a useful evolution of the term, as opposed to referring to TSR/WOTC D&D (which is already quite broad, but still useful).
To Be Fair outside of our little circles it kind of is...

When I went to play LARP vampire in 96 my mom and grandma called it 'going to do the D&D thing'
When I said to my aunt and sister who ALWAYS ask for suggestions for Christmas gifts that I want the renegade press GI Joe RPG they both were shocked that (and this is more or less a quote) "don't already have all the D&D books?"
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I like the analysis here, but the word heroic is perhaps even worse than war or sport used in previous frameworks. The word is notorious for meaning different things to the RPG community. Some folks see heroic as in deeds done by the characters. Attempting and succeeding at things that are dangerous and risky, but for a very good cause. Others, view heroic as having power and abilities to do amazing things beyond the average person. Which is why you see a lot of comments saying things like, "X edition low level characters dont have many HP, spells, and/or abilities so it doesnt feel heroic." Also, pragmatic is very pedestrian of a term in comparison leaving the impression that it lacks luster and appeal.

I also have issue with the idea that war/strategy is "fighting dirty", and sport/tactical is "fighting fair". You could use strategy to ensure a fair fight, you could also apply tactics in an underhanded way. I believe the ideal focus is on the game design and the tools at the players disposal. There is tactics in 3E, but also strategy in 4E. It helps to look at is the mechanical design of each to see where they lean. 3E with its stacking spells, wealth of magic items, and myriad of skills. 4E with its defined roles and in combat riders. The design of each pushes toward strategy or tactics, but doesn't eliminate the opposite. 5E lacks a strong push or mechanical heft to really provide a solid experience in either, but still has both.
You could use the terms symmetrical and asymmetric.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
To Be Fair outside of our little circles it kind of is...

When I went to play LARP vampire in 96 my mom and grandma called it 'going to do the D&D thing'
When I said to my aunt and sister who ALWAYS ask for suggestions for Christmas gifts that I want the renegade press GI Joe RPG they both were shocked that (and this is more or less a quote) "don't already have all the D&D books?"
Right, but I feel like on a D&D message board we can hold ourselves to a slightly more precise standard than that.
 

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