Combat balance question (my players stay out!)

[CaptainCalico]

I don't think my players come here much, but I always wanted to put that on a thread

I’m running my first campaign ever, and I have a problem when it comes to combat.

To set the stage I have a 7-person group, for what I stressed from the outset would be a world where social skills and politics would be just as important as combat skills. The party is mostly 5-6th level with one person playing catch-up at 3rd.

We have:

Eleven Sorcerer
Half-Elf Psion (Seer) with 1 level of Rogue
Human Bard (Monte’s version)
Human Wizard (Diviner) with 1 level of Rogue
Half-Elf Rogue (3rd level)
Gnome Rogue (Crafter/Alchemist focus)
Human Paladin

During character creation the person playing the Paladin made it clear that while he enjoyed watching social interplay and politics, he just did not do it well himself and it was not fun (or pretty) for him to even try – he just wanted to play the strong silent type and be the party muscle. I had no problem with that and it has worked out well so far. He was interested in the Cleave feat tree and I said it would be OK to extend it with additional cleave-based feats from the SG-1 book, since every party needs a tank, right?

Thing is, for Cleave to be any fun at all you need lots of small opponents, and whenever I hit the group with a bunch of small attackers my socially-oriented spellcasters (4 out of 7 PCs) don’t even blink. They just open up with the one or two area affect spells they know and clear the room before the Paladin can get more than one swing in, which is just really anti-climactic for all concerned. The only thing I can think of is just hitting them with wave after wave, but that would really drag the combats on forever…………..

Any ideas on how to give my tank his time in the spotlight?

 

[Quirthanon]

Try using energy resistant enemies, (ie. fire kobolds or small elementals). Of course you have to match energy types to the damage from the spell casters (fireball came to mind first). Or they could have the Shaman cast protection from elements before battle begins. Or give them improved evasion. Or make them regenerate, or not take damage from the spells or an SR.
Don't be afarid to make them stay in hand to hand for a while (ie. fudge it).

 

[Pyrex]

Or have something a little larger grapple the caster while the little guys swarm the tank.

 

[kamosa]

I don't think my players come here much, but I always wanted to put that on a thread

I’m running my first campaign ever, and I have a problem when it comes to combat.

To set the stage I have a 7-person group, for what I stressed from the outset would be a world where social skills and politics would be just as important as combat skills. The party is mostly 5-6th level with one person playing catch-up at 3rd.

We have:

Eleven Sorcerer
Half-Elf Psion (Seer) with 1 level of Rogue
Human Bard (Monte’s version)
Human Wizard (Diviner) with 1 level of Rogue
Half-Elf Rogue (3rd level)
Gnome Rogue (Crafter/Alchemist focus)
Human Paladin

During character creation the person playing the Paladin made it clear that while he enjoyed watching social interplay and politics, he just did not do it well himself and it was not fun (or pretty) for him to even try – he just wanted to play the strong silent type and be the party muscle. I had no problem with that and it has worked out well so far. He was interested in the Cleave feat tree and I said it would be OK to extend it with additional cleave-based feats from the SG-1 book, since every party needs a tank, right?

Thing is, for Cleave to be any fun at all you need lots of small opponents, and whenever I hit the group with a bunch of small attackers my socially-oriented spellcasters (4 out of 7 PCs) don’t even blink. They just open up with the one or two area affect spells they know and clear the room before the Paladin can get more than one swing in, which is just really anti-climactic for all concerned. The only thing I can think of is just hitting them with wave after wave, but that would really drag the combats on forever…………..

Any ideas on how to give my tank his time in the spotlight?

Try bumping up the hitpoints of the monsters you throw against the party. If you move their hitpoints just beyond the area of effect damage then when the paladin gets to them they should be with in cleave range. IE if they start out with 35 hitpoints and they get it for 25 -30 points of distance damage, then cleave city when the paladin gets there.

Spread out the areas from where attacks come from. Spells work great if the enemy is in a nice bunch. Spread out the opponents and more of them will get thru to the paladin.

Use maneuver or spells to decrease contact distance. Spells work great at great distances. Use invisibility, darkness, obscuring mists and other visibility attacking spells to decrease the effective combat range of the party. Use fast troops to close down quickly with the party so they don't get as many opportunities to fireball the enemy before it is among the party and they won't want to drop massive distance damage on it.

Increase the tempo per day of the game. Put the players in situations where they feel they must accomplish more per day than just one combat. Make the mages/bards/psions think about whether they want to use this power on this monster or the next monster.

Run mixed tactics groups. Have some stand off distance damage types combined with rush up and melee types in your enemy groups. The mages will focus onto the distance fighters leaving the melee types for paladin.


Hope this helps and good luck.

 

[Victim]

Bystanders - cleave doesn't have the friendly fire aspects that Fireball does.

Ninjas or Assassins. In other words, guys with evasion but relatively few HP.

 

[ph0rk]

surprise the party: The casters probably won't be tossing fireballs if they'll be hitting the tank, the rogues, or themselves.

 

[Morpheus]

Hit the party with area effect spells and watch the wizard and sorcerer run for the hills (or, at least, cast defensive spells). Then, have the party attacked by the minions of the BBEG and then you have what you want: Cleave City.

 

[CaptainCalico]

Hmmm. They are in a situation right now where it would be feasble to have lots of opponents pop up right next to them - I'll try that. Close for melee!

That idea about bystanders is going to come in handy once they get back to the city.....

Great ideas everyone. Thanks (and keep it coming!)

 

[Squire James]

While taking PC abilities to some extent is a good idea (no DR 10/magic foes vs low level guys with no magic weapons), it is easy to take it too far sometimes. My suggestion is to make good Cleave situations (ie: multiple opponents that like to gang up on someone) and let the Great Cleaves happen when they happen. If the player starts complaining about not cuisinarting 10 foes each round, shrug and note that the advanced Cleave feats don't happen very often, but are potent when they do! It's sorta like choosing a greataxe over the greatsword... you want damaging crits rather than lots of crits!

 

[S'mon]

I'd say look for combats where Fireball weakens the attackers just enough that the tank can Great Cleave them. A dozen or so attackers around 4th level would do it, plus unlike 1st-levellers they're offensively powerful enough to threaten the party. The wizards can fireball dozens of 10-hp foes, so use 25-hp foes. The GCer should be using 2-handed Power Attack, of course.