D&D 5E Combat & Etherealness

[LordEntrails]

@Flamestrike Thanks for the detailed reply.

Here's where my concern/confusion stems; DMG > Ethereal Plane > Border Ethereal:

Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapping plane, and vice versa. ... The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings.

So despite JC's tweet (which I often believe are in error or incomplete) it would seem to me that if a creature on the Prime Material (PM) plane can see someone on the BE (Border Ethereal), then a magical missile (or other magical forces) can target and damage them. (And vice versa) Now, that last part about a living being makes absolutely no sense to me, so I've ignored that for now.

Now, take the ghost (good example), it specifically states in it's Ethereal trait that

...while it is in the Border Ethereal, and vice versa, yet it can't affect or be affected by anything on the other plane.

Specific overrides general (if I knew what the general rule I quoted above meant!) so atleast for the ghost, magic missiles would not work.

Here's where I'm at;

• RAW their is some way (not very clear) that creatures on the BE can be attacked (effected) by creatures on the PM.
• I'm thoroughly confused by RAI.
• But, I really like the idea that there are special cases where combat can occur between the PM and BE. What might be some good rulings or house rules to manage this?

 

[R_J_K75]

• RAW their is some way (not very clear) that creatures on the BE can be attacked (effected) by creatures on the PM.

What rule says this, whats quoted below? Is that the actual 5E rule, if so you are right its rather vague? I guess I'd rule any spell with force damage would work.

"Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapping plane, and vice versa. ... The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings."

 

[LordEntrails]

When the DMG refers to 'force' effects in its description of the Ethereal plane its referring to (most) force barriers. Not the force damage type.

How do we know that though? Agreed that all the specific examples (Wall of Force et al) are not combat oriented. But, ... I wish they had made this clearer!

 

[Flamestrike]

So despite JC's tweet (which I often believe are in error or incomplete) it would seem to me that if a creature on the Prime Material (PM) plane can see someone on the BE (Border Ethereal), then a magical missile (or other magical forces) can target and damage them. (And vice versa).

No, they cant target them with any spell or effect unless that spell or effect expressly allows targeting of creatures on other planes of existence (namely the Ethereal plane).

Some force effects do cross over into the Ethereal plane. Wall of Force, Forcecage and Tiny Hut all do.

Magic missile does not cross over, but it is very effective against Incorporeal creatures (all of which generally live on the Ethereal plane) presuming they're on the material plane.

Simply dealing force damage (Eldritch blast, Magic Missile, Mordenkainens Sword, Bigbys hand etc) is not enough. The spell needs to expressly state it crosses over into the Ethereal.

Feel free to rule all force spells do just that (cross over) but that's not the actual rule.

 

[LordEntrails]

What rule says this, whats quoted below? Is that the actual 5E rule, if so you are right its rather vague? I guess I'd rule any spell with force damage would work.

"Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapping plane, and vice versa. ... The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings."

The actual rule is the one you quoted below. And it implies that there are ways to attack ethereal targets, but it doesn't say so. And all the spell examples that effect the BE are all wall/movement/visibility and not attack/damage examples.

 

[Flamestrike]

What rule says this, whats quoted below? Is that the actual 5E rule, if so you are right its rather vague? I guess I'd rule any spell with force damage would work.

"Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapping plane, and vice versa. ... The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings."

Isnt the actual quote this:

A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane, and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings.

That just says you cant cross force barriers (wall of force and force cage and Tiny hut) or living beings or objects made of force.

It doesn't say 'force damage from the Material plane, affects you in the Ethereal plane'.

 

[LordEntrails]

No, they cant target them with any spell or effect unless that spell or effect expressly allows targeting of creatures on other planes of existence (namely the Ethereal plane).

I don't think it's right to make that ... assumption? Normally, we use the general rules to decide a rule, and then specific rules override general when their is a conflict.

The rule from the DMG I stated above says that certain magical force effects can effect BE. But, to me, the problem is it doesn't say which magical effects. Are we to assume only those magical effects that specifically state they can, can? So in other words, what I quoted really isn't a general rule, but rather a statement indicating their are specific rules elsewhere?

That's starting to make sense, but still not happy with it.

 

[R_J_K75]

Isnt the actual quote this:

A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane, and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings.

That just says you cant cross force barriers (wall of force and force cage and Tiny hut) or living beings or objects made of force.

It doesn't say 'force damage from the Material plane, affects you in the Ethereal plane'.

So if a ghost is travelling in the border ethereal and comes into contact with a wall of force on that was cast on the PM the wall of force prevents the ghost from passing through it even though its on the ethereal plane? This doesnt make much sense. Why would a force spell be able to penetrate into the ethereal from the prime, because Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford just decided so?

 

[LordEntrails]

Isnt the actual quote this:

A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapped plane, and solid objects on the overlapped plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal. The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings.

That just says you cant cross force barriers (wall of force and force cage and Tiny hut) or living beings or objects made of force.

It doesn't say 'force damage from the Material plane, affects you in the Ethereal plane'.

No, not in my copy of the DMG, which is from FG, and therefore is supposed to be updated will all erratta.

Here's the full quote;

Normally, creatures in the Border Ethereal can't attack creatures on the overlapping plane, and vice versa. A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible and utterly silent to someone on the overlapping plane, and solid objects on the overlapping plane don't hamper the movement of a creature in the Border Ethereal.

The exceptions are certain magical effects (including anything made of magical force) and living beings This makes the Ethereal Plane ideal for reconnaissance, spying on opponents, and moving around without being detected. The Ethereal Plane also disobeys the laws of gravity; a creature there can move up and down as easily as walking.

 

[R_J_K75]

No, not in my copy of the DMG, which is from FG, and therefore is supposed to be updated will all erratta.

Here's the full quote;

Says the overlapping plane. The PM and BE overlap but do not touch, youre either in one or the other but not both. Correct?