Level Up (A5E) Combat Maneuver and Traditions from multiclassing

[Anonymous3]

The multiclassing rules for Combat Maneuvers (CM) appear straight forward but I just want to make sure.

If you gain the Combat Maneuvers class feature from more than one class, you gain any additional combat traditions or maneuvers the features provide but your exertion pool remains the same and does not stack.
...
You use your class levels in every class that grants combat maneuvers to determine the highest degree of combat maneuvers you can learn, determined by the class with the greatest access. For example, if you have 3 levels of fighter and 10 levels of herald you can learn combat maneuvers of up to 4th degree (like a 13th level fighter).

I will use a multiclass Berserker2/Fighter4 for illustration only.
At level Berserker2 we have:

• Combat Maneuvers = 2
• Combat traditions = 1st degree

Once we add Fighter4 we a considered a 6th level Fighter and therefore we have:

• Combat Maneuvers = 2 + 5 ? OR = 5?
• Combat traditions = 2nd degree

Basically, does the Fighter Maneuver's Known column represent the maximum amount of CMs known regardless of class features? At level 3 Fighters get to learn 2 more CMs and I am not sure if these should be traded or added to the total CMs known.

 

[Selganor]

I always read this as:

Each class has its own group of known traditions and maneuvers but they share the same exertion pool.
To determine the max degree of the maneuvers you add together the class levels of classes that give you maneuvers and see what the highest degree of those classes would be (it's probably the fighter if applicable )

In your example:
Berserker 2: Two traditions of: Adamant Mountain, Mirror’s Glint, Rapid Current, Tempered Iron, Tooth and Claw. And a total of two maneuvers from the traditions you chose.
Once you add a level of fighter you gain proficiency in two other traditions (not limited to the berserker ones) and get three new maneuvers. The rules don't specifically require you to choose them from the traditions you got from that class, just that you are proficient in the tradition.
The Exertion pool would still be 4 (2xPB) and the max degree is still 1st.

Once you level the fighter up to 2 you'd be able to choose 2nd degree maneuvers (as a 4th level fighter), get another maneuver (which would be your first and currently only one that could be 2nd degree)
At Berserker 2/Fighter 3 your PB would raise to +3 so the exertion pool would be 6 and you'd get the first Maneuver Specialisation from the fighter.
Berserker 2/Fighter 4 would raise the exertion pool by 1 again (to 7) from the fighter feature and another (up to 2nd degree) maneuver.

 

[Anonymous3]

Berserker 2: Two traditions of: Adamant Mountain, Mirror’s Glint, Rapid Current, Tempered Iron, Tooth and Claw. And a total of two maneuvers from the traditions you chose.
Once you add a level of fighter you gain proficiency in two other traditions (not limited to the berserker ones) and get three new maneuvers.

Are you saying that:

1. Fighter's Maneuvers Known column does not represent the maximum CMs possible?
2. Features that allow classes to gain additional CMs are added together with those listed in the Fighter's Maneuvers Known column?

Just to be clear:

1. Fighter 6 nets you
   • 7 Maneuver's Known.
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 7 exertion (6 + 1 Reserves).
   • 3 Combat Traditions (2 + 1 from archetype).
2. Berserker 2/ Fighter 4 (6th level Fighter equivalent) nets you:
   Assuming (features are additive)
   • 9 Maneuver's Known (2 + 7 from being considered equivalent to a 6th level fighter).
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 6 exertion.
   • 5 Combat Traditions (2 + 2 + 1 addition tradition from fighter archetype).
3. Berserker 2/ Fighter 4 (6th level Fighter equivalent) nets you:
   Assuming (features are NOT additive)
   • 7 Maneuver's Known (7 from being considered equivalent to a 6th level fighter).
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 7 exertion (6 + 1 Reserves).
   • 5 Combat Traditions (2 + 2 + 1 addition tradition from fighter archetype).

 

[Selganor]

By that definition it would be NOT additive.

"You use your class levels in every class that grants combat maneuvers to determine the highest degree of combat maneuvers you can learn, determined by the class with the greatest access."

You just add the classes to see which degree of maneuvers you'd have gotten if you single classed. Just like the Multiclass spellcaster spell slots table for casters.

 

[Anonymous3]

I think there is a confusion between Combat Maneuvers and Combat Maneuver Degree.

"You use your class levels in every class that grants combat maneuvers to determine the highest degree of combat maneuvers you can learn, determined by the class with the greatest access."

This points to the Degree (1st - 5th) which is, based on my reading, separate from [Combat] Maneuvers Known. Only the latter is comparable to Spells known. Degrees are comparable to Spell level.

Back to my original post:

If you gain the Combat Maneuvers class feature from more than one class, you gain any additional combat traditions or maneuvers the features provide but your exertion pool remains the same and does not stack.

This states that Combat Maneuvers (ie., those shown in the Maneuvers Known column, and not to be confused with Degrees (1st to 5th) ) and Traditions are additive ie., you gain/add them to your existing pool.

 

[Verall]

I think there is a confusion between Combat Maneuvers and Combat Maneuver Degree.

This points to the Degree (1st - 5th) which is, based on my reading, separate from [Combat] Maneuvers Known. Only the latter is comparable to Spells known. Degrees are comparable to Spell level.

Back to my original post:

This states that Combat Maneuvers (ie., those shown in the Maneuvers Known column, and not to be confused with Degrees (1st to 5th) ) and Traditions are additive ie., you gain/add them to your existing pool.

For Multiclassing, combat maneuver degree is the primary advantage of Multiclassing.
In your example fighter has the better maneuver degree progression, so at level 6 you would have access to 2nd degree maneuvers.

Most other features are gained as per the class progression you gain a level in.
-You get 1 exertion pool, but bonus exertion generally stacks

• you gain access to traditions learned from both classes, plus any additional traditions from other sources like subclasses
• you get maneuvers know as you take a level in a class as per the level in that class, this can make maneuvers known progression a little wonky and can make it important as to when you take levels in a class.

Per your example if you take
2 levels in berserker first you would know 2x1st degree maneuvers,

At level 3 (2 berserker/1 fighter) you would learn 3 additional 1st degree maneuvers
Total 5 x 1st degree maneuvers

At level 4 (2 berserker/2 fighter) your maximum degree known would be 2nd and you would gain 1 x 2nd degree maneuver
Total
5 x 1st degree maneuvers
1 x 2nd degree maneuvers

At level 5 (2 berserker/3 fighter) nothing is gained
Total
5 x 1st degree maneuvers
1 x 2nd degree maneuvers

At level 6 (2 berserker/4 fighter) you learn an additional 2nd degree maneuver
Total
5 x 1st degree maneuvers
2 x 2nd degree maneuvers


I hope this clears up any confusion

 

[lichmaster]

Are you saying that:

1. Fighter's Maneuvers Known column does not represent the maximum CMs possible?
2. Features that allow classes to gain additional CMs are added together with those listed in the Fighter's Maneuvers Known column?

Just to be clear:

1. Fighter 6 nets you
   • 7 Maneuver's Known.
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 7 exertion (6 + 1 Reserves).
   • 3 Combat Traditions (2 + 1 from archetype).
2. Berserker 2/ Fighter 4 (6th level Fighter equivalent) nets you:
   Assuming (features are additive)
   • 9 Maneuver's Known (2 + 7 from being considered equivalent to a 6th level fighter).
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 6 exertion.
   • 5 Combat Traditions (2 + 3 + 1 addition tradition from fighter archetype).
3. Berserker 2/ Fighter 4 (6th level Fighter equivalent) nets you:
   Assuming (features are NOT additive)
   • 7 Maneuver's Known (7 from being considered equivalent to a 6th level fighter).
   • 2nd degree maneuvers.
   • 7 exertion (6 + 1 Reserves).
   • 5 Combat Traditions (2 + 3 + 1 addition tradition from fighter archetype).

Berserker 2/Fighter 4 should get

• 7 maneuvers known (2 from berserker and 5 from fighter, these stack)
• 2nd degree maneuvers (as a level 6 character of fighter, the class among the ones for this PC that gains highest maneuvers at that level)
• 7 exertion (2x3PB+1 reseves)
• 4 or 5 traditions (2+2+1 from fighter archetype if it that grants any, let's remember we could use o5e archetypes too)
• Maneuver specialization !

 

[lichmaster]

For Multiclassing, combat maneuver degree is the primary advantage of Multiclassing.

The other significant advantage is that you can easily double the number of known traditions with a single level dip, and this can give a lot of flexibility. Whether this is useful it's hard to tell.
But any 1/1 character with two martial classes will know 4 traditions, while no 2nd level character of a single class would. This almost feels like an oversight.

 

[Anonymous3]

Berserker 2/Fighter 4 should get

• 7 maneuvers known (2 from berserker and 5 from fighter, these stack)
• 2nd degree maneuvers (as a level 6 character of fighter, the class among the ones for this PC that gains highest maneuvers at that level)
• 7 exertion (2x3PB+1 reseves)
• 4 or 5 traditions (2+2+1 from fighter archetype if it that grants any, let's remember we could use o5e archetypes too)
• Maneuver specialization !

Thank you so much for answering in this format. It really helps clear things up because it reduces the chances of me accidently misinterpreting someone else's interpretation of the rules.

• 7 maneuvers known (2 from berserker and 5 from fighter, these stack)

I agree that they stack but how they stack is where I am stuck. The MC rules indicate that you use the class with the highest access to Combat Maneuvers features. For me, this means all of them (CMs, traditions and degrees). The wording describes exceptions to these rules where necessary.

If someone asked me "where can I check how many CMs and your degrees are I would like to answer with "check the fighter table, MC rules indicate that they give me the highest access". This is simple.

I would further add, "at level three of my other class (fighter, herald etc) I get XY which I add to these". This is the additive (stacking) I described earlier. It is clear now this is not how I can do things and I have to add things on a level by level basis and will have to access two separate tables to add CMs.

 

[Selganor]

I agree that they stack but how they stack is where I am stuck. The MC rules indicate that you use the class with the highest access to Combat Maneuvers features. For me, this means all of them (CMs, traditions and degrees). The wording describes exceptions to these rules where necessary.

Check my quote above... The only passage with a reference that adds all the class levels only refers to the highest degree and no other features.
If you got a Berserker 2, Fighter 4 you get the maneuvers that a Berserker 2 gives you and you get the maneuvers that a fighter 4 gives you but you can choose a maneuver up to degree 2 from 4th level on - regardless of how many of your 2 berserker level were in those 4 levels)

If someone asked me "where can I check how many CMs and your degrees are I would like to answer with "check the fighter table, MC rules indicate that they give me the highest access". This is simple.
View attachment 381720

True, but only for multiclasses that include fighter (that's why I wrote "usually"). If you are a rogue/ranger you'd get degree 2 from 5th level (where the ranger would get them), even if the rogue would otherwise get them at 7th level.

I would further add, "at level three of my other class (fighter, herald etc) I get XY which I add to these". This is the additive (stacking) I described earlier. It is clear now this is not how I can do things and I have to add things on a level by level basis and will have to access two separate tables to add CMs.

I think I now understand what you are thinking...
So you understood the "add your classes that give you maneuvers to determine the degree from the 'best' class" to mean:
If you take a level of "other" class you still get the maneuvers (number and max degree) from the best class plus the other features the "other" class gives you?