combat question (my players stay out...)
- Thread starter brehobit
- Start date
Well... the Hydra is going to smoke someone (6 head attacks) when it pops out of the water... and it is going to smoke two people (each getting 6 head attacks from provoking due to movement) as they all run away.
But getting away from melee range, or never getting into melee range is the best thing to do when a Hydra comes marchin' up. It's slow.. don'tcha know...
If the party is going to be encountering the Hydra in it's swamp... without a way to deal with it at range, then I'd be increasing the CR or the exp. YMMV.
Mike
But getting away from melee range, or never getting into melee range is the best thing to do when a Hydra comes marchin' up. It's slow.. don'tcha know...
If the party is going to be encountering the Hydra in it's swamp... without a way to deal with it at range, then I'd be increasing the CR or the exp. YMMV.
Mike
brehobit
Explorer
Thanks all, I think I have it figured out. I think the party will be forced to run away, but there is no _good_ reason, given the adventure and the party ranger (and NPC ranger who may be there too) for the hydra to close. It could happen (and the adventure set-up makes it possible) but they should be able to avoid.
The real problem is if they get sucked into the fight, they are pretty much dead.
I still think this is a bit much for a CR 5. 6 attacks at +8 for 1d10+3 is crazy. Combat reflexes _and_ reach _and_ all heads getting to attack is sick. Oh, fast healing 16 is crazy too. The head's "vulnerability" is very limited. I think perhaps you should just be able to attack the heads (perhaps with a +4 dodge bonus to AC?)
If you can tie it down, it is easy money. But doing so is non-trivial, and if it closes, it's all over. Their lack of casters is key....
Mark
The real problem is if they get sucked into the fight, they are pretty much dead.
I still think this is a bit much for a CR 5. 6 attacks at +8 for 1d10+3 is crazy. Combat reflexes _and_ reach _and_ all heads getting to attack is sick. Oh, fast healing 16 is crazy too. The head's "vulnerability" is very limited. I think perhaps you should just be able to attack the heads (perhaps with a +4 dodge bonus to AC?)
If you can tie it down, it is easy money. But doing so is non-trivial, and if it closes, it's all over. Their lack of casters is key....
Mark
For the Combat Reflexes issue, there are four main ways to interpret it:
1) Combat Reflexes works the same as it always does, the clause just allows AOOs with any head. That means with a dex of 12, a hydra gets 2 AOOs per round, but still only one per provocation.
2) Combat Reflexes now grants a number of AOOs equal to the number of heads the hydra has, but still only 1 per provocation. So a 7th headed hydra gets 7 AOOs per round.
3) Combat Reflexes allows all of the heads to attack on an AOO, but doesn't grant any additional AOOs. So a 7th headed hydra gets 1 AOOs per round, but in that AOO there are 7 head attacks.
4) Combat Reflexes grants both additional AOOs and allows all head attacks per AOO. So a 7th headed hydra with a dex of 12 gets 2 AOOs per round, and every AOO includes 7 head attacks.
I've brought up this topic before on the boards, and it was never completely sorted out which version you use. The power of your hydra will be dramatically altered depending on which version you use, 1 is the weakest hydra, 4 is the strongest.
1) Combat Reflexes works the same as it always does, the clause just allows AOOs with any head. That means with a dex of 12, a hydra gets 2 AOOs per round, but still only one per provocation.
2) Combat Reflexes now grants a number of AOOs equal to the number of heads the hydra has, but still only 1 per provocation. So a 7th headed hydra gets 7 AOOs per round.
3) Combat Reflexes allows all of the heads to attack on an AOO, but doesn't grant any additional AOOs. So a 7th headed hydra gets 1 AOOs per round, but in that AOO there are 7 head attacks.
4) Combat Reflexes grants both additional AOOs and allows all head attacks per AOO. So a 7th headed hydra with a dex of 12 gets 2 AOOs per round, and every AOO includes 7 head attacks.
I've brought up this topic before on the boards, and it was never completely sorted out which version you use. The power of your hydra will be dramatically altered depending on which version you use, 1 is the weakest hydra, 4 is the strongest.
Off the top of my head:brehobit said:
Deep Slumber (put it to sleep, then CdG with Greataxe)
Glitterdust (Blinded = No AoO's, plus reduces its speed, and number of successful attacks)
Color Spray (Will only stun it for a round, but still useful. The very short range is still a problem though.)
Slow (I think a hydra can still attack with all its heads with a standard action or partial charge, but slowing it makes it easier to keep at a distance.)
And, not a will save but very handy in this situation:
Ray of Enfeeblement (assuming -5 Str, thats -2 to hit and damage, reducing the hydra's damage output by about 10 points per round)
Enlarge Person (effective +4 to sunder checks, extra damage, equals the hydra's reach)
brehobit said:
Wouldn't the hydra also get -4 for using a light weapon (natural attack)?
As I said above, Enlarge Person (from a potion, or scroll via UMD) would effectively give a +4 bonus (technically it reduces the hydra's bonus due to size). Combine this with a reach weapon like a glaive (to avoid the AoO by sundering from outside the hydra's reach, and to get +4 for using a two-handed weapon) and the chances of sundering aren't that bad, even without Improved Sunder.
Barbarian/Swordsage: BA +4, Str +6 (inc rage and enlarge, estimated), 2-handed +4, size -1 = +13
6 headed Hydra: BA +6, Str +3, light -4, size -2, size differential +4 = +7
It's definately one of those fights that rewards being prepared with the right tools. Is there any chance that the PCs can gain information about what types of creatures live in the swamp? Do the warlocks have ranks in Kn (Arcana)?
The lack of a proper wizard is certainly going to hurt the party's chances some.
MongooseFamiliar
First Post
Hold up, would the ranger know, or have contacts who know, that there are rumors of hydra in the area? He might also know a thing or two about tactics to combat them, maybe suggesting the group invest in tripvine, tanglefoot bags, scrolls of deep slumber, wands of whatever.
Oooh, here's a thought....scroll of Spiritual Weapon. Or the spell that lets your weapon go flying down a line...Whirling Blade?
Oooh, here's a thought....scroll of Spiritual Weapon. Or the spell that lets your weapon go flying down a line...Whirling Blade?
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
This is the version I favor. Hydras could have been written much better, but the first version doesn't seem consistent with the rules to me and any version that gives the hydra a full attack on every AoO makes it (IMO) too strong.
As for how to deal with a hydra without it simply being a dull episode of "how many arrows did we use while flying out of its reach and entangling it so it can't find cover," ray of enfeeblement, is probably the single best way to deal with it. It doesn't just knock the damage bonus down, it also nerfs the hydra's already mediocre attack bonus. Six attacks that will hit 50% of the time for an average of 7.5 damage is 21.5 damage per round. If, instead, those six attacks hit 40% of the time for an average of 5.5 damage, its expected damage per round is around 13.2. Drop Combat Expertise or a ray of exhaustion on top of that and the hydra is pretty much neutered.
On another note, when calculating the Hydra's attack bonus vs. a sunder, remember that the hydra's head is a natural weapon which is considered a light weapon for disarming or sundering. Thus, assuming it has a +8 attack bonus to begin with, it's only rolling at +12 vs. the sunder. A character with Improved Sunder and a +8 attack bonus (pretty easy to come by, even at 3rd level (16 str, weapon focus, masterwork weapon, +3 BAB= +8 attack) will be rolling the sunder attempt at +12 with a one-handed weapon. Given a two-handed weapon, the character will be rolling the sunder attempt at +16. That's not bad odds, but it doesn't make up for being in melee with a non-nerfed hydra in the first place (which is the real problem with hydras being a "reward" for characters with Improved Sunder--they don't actually work out to have much of an advantage over characters without it, and in order to get that advantage, they need to be in one of the worst tactical positions possible).
As for how to deal with a hydra without it simply being a dull episode of "how many arrows did we use while flying out of its reach and entangling it so it can't find cover," ray of enfeeblement, is probably the single best way to deal with it. It doesn't just knock the damage bonus down, it also nerfs the hydra's already mediocre attack bonus. Six attacks that will hit 50% of the time for an average of 7.5 damage is 21.5 damage per round. If, instead, those six attacks hit 40% of the time for an average of 5.5 damage, its expected damage per round is around 13.2. Drop Combat Expertise or a ray of exhaustion on top of that and the hydra is pretty much neutered.
On another note, when calculating the Hydra's attack bonus vs. a sunder, remember that the hydra's head is a natural weapon which is considered a light weapon for disarming or sundering. Thus, assuming it has a +8 attack bonus to begin with, it's only rolling at +12 vs. the sunder. A character with Improved Sunder and a +8 attack bonus (pretty easy to come by, even at 3rd level (16 str, weapon focus, masterwork weapon, +3 BAB= +8 attack) will be rolling the sunder attempt at +12 with a one-handed weapon. Given a two-handed weapon, the character will be rolling the sunder attempt at +16. That's not bad odds, but it doesn't make up for being in melee with a non-nerfed hydra in the first place (which is the real problem with hydras being a "reward" for characters with Improved Sunder--they don't actually work out to have much of an advantage over characters without it, and in order to get that advantage, they need to be in one of the worst tactical positions possible).
Stalker0 said:
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