Combat takes too long

[Sadrik]

They said that combat is supposed to be shorter. It is not. More rounds but less time to resolve each round. More rounds true, less time no. If I were to place my finger on what is eating time up it is all of the tactical miniature elements. I move here, I miss causes him to shift etc. Which are interesting, however they do take time to implement.

Also, with the increased HP it feels like this endless attrition. My wizard (that died last session ) needed at least four hits with his 1d6+4 damage at-will power to kill a 30 hp kobold. It felt like an endless attrition. After the first six rounds or so, pretty much everyone used their encounter powers and possibly their dailies up, and then it goes on another twelve rounds. It feels like we are playing the game wrong! During our Kots game, we did a 4 and a half hour session and did two basic encounters that took 2 hours each with a half hour of roleplay between them.

I dont mind the extra hit points, but it also seems that damage has dramatically decreased from previous incarnations of the game. Damage needs to be increased for all characters except possibly the ranger who seems pretty solid. What has your experience been with this?

 

[frankthedm]

Yeah, it does feel like wotc missed the sweet spot, erring on the side of too many HP or too little damage.

BUT, the Party is also supposed to work together. YOU, Mr. Wizard, should be pegging mobile foes with that ice beam as needed, while your allies shift enemies into clumpy groups so your fireblast hits several of them at once.

 

[FadedC]

Hmm....interesting, what level are you playing at? At first level with 6 players we've been finding fights are often over fairly quickly, usually within 3 rounds or so. This has been true even when fighting higher level challenges (but we haven't taken on a solo yet). The rounds are not going by especially quickly, but people are still figuring out how to play.

 

[Jack99]

Yes, could you give some examples of your fights? Also, how much 4e has your group been playing?

 

[Harr]

Hmm....interesting, what level are you playing at? At first level with 6 players we've been finding fights are often over fairly quickly, usually within 3 rounds or so. This has been true even when fighting higher level challenges (but we haven't taken on a solo yet). The rounds are not going by especially quickly, but people are still figuring out how to play.

I'd like to know what level/what monsters you're playing at, since an even encounter at that party size strikes me as almost impossible to finish in three rounds, let alone 'usually', unless you're having monsters surrender as soon as they get to bloodied or something, or unless you're fighting all-minion fights.

Also a combat that lasts three rounds would denigrate many monster design elements, like encounter powers, recharging powers, effects that trigger upon bloodied status, etc, etc, a 3-round fight would minimize and trivalize all of those, defeating the point of even having them.

Personally I find Sadrik's comments to be spot-on, there's definitely a "how many hits is it gonna take?!" feeling that sets into many combats if enemies aren't surrendering or running away at certain points.

 

[shadowguidex]

My group's rounds are much faster, and the overall combat is shorter as well. We completed 3 combat encounters and a skill challenge last week during our normal playing time. In 3E we wouldn't have completed all three combats that quickly.

Also, seems like you might be missing some strikers to me. A Bow Ranger lays out 1d10+1d8+4 on a basic attack. Wizards are not strikers, so of course your 1d6+4 isn't going to kill as quickly as the Ranger, Rogue, or Warlocks damage.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Also, with the increased HP it feels like this endless attrition. My wizard (that died last session ) needed at least four hits with his 1d6+4 damage at-will power to kill a 30 hp kobold.

The wizard's role is to damage multiple opponents. You should be able to hit 1-5 targets with each attack. (Strikers usually only needs 2 attacks to take down a target). So, let us say that your party has two strikers as well. A fight against 3 monsters could go like this:

Round 1)
Wizard: damage 3 opponents by 25%
Striker 1: damage 1 opponent by 50%
Striker 2: damage 1 opponent by 50%

Round 2)
Wizard: damage 2 opponents by 25% (two monsters go down)
Striker 1: damage 1 opponent by 50% (one monster goes down)
Striker 2: wtf, there are no monsters left

That is 3 monsters down in two rounds with every attack being a hit. You usually hit ~50%+ of the time, so a typical fight might take 4 rounds.

Attacking a single target isn't the role the wizard was made for. If you are using scorching blast to target one enemy something is wrong...

 

[FourthBear]

In the combats I've run and played in so far in 4e, I've found combats don't tend to outlast their welcome unless the PCs are rolling poorly. We have had some doozies of combats where the players had an average roll of 6 for round after round. I have to admit I am tempted to come up with some kind of "dice mercy" rule where you accumulate bonuses the more sequential poor rolls you have or something.

All that said, assuming the the problem is that the opponents are taking too long to drop (and not that the PCs also feel invulnerable), the simplest answer would be to multiply all opponent hps by a factor that corrects the combat length to the desired amount. So if combat is taking two times too long, multiply all hit points by 0.5. I won't be doing it in my own campaigns, since I think the fights appear to have reasonable durations as long as the average player die roll is close to the expected median.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Hmm... 3-5 rounds for me, at 1-2 level 6-players, extra mobs added for the sixth player.

Kobold Hall.

I'm not yet done with the boss or solo encouinters thogh

 

[Tervin]

In my limited experience of 4E combat on low levels I would say that combat might take more rounds, but every single round is a lot quicker. Now when the group I am in has started to figure out how to play with the new rules I would say that combats end up being quicker than they used to be.

I have not yet played at higher levels where I think the real problem used to be in earlier editions, so I am curious to see what that will be like.

One other thing I think has to be considered is how many opponents you play per combat. I don't think I ever played a combat encounter at low level in 3.x where we ran into on the whole about 40 monsters divided into three waves. That level 2 fight in 4.0 I think took about three hours and gave us about a third of the XP we will need for getting to level 3. If that is what players and a DM who are new to the system are able to do, then I am not worried about combat speed.