D&D (2024) Combing through the druid & paladin packet

[Maxperson]

deliberately designing a problem doesn't prevent the problem from existing, nor does it help when the GM needs take responsibility for working around their inability to reward or challenge PCs as a result of that design

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Excuse made by software developers when they try to convince the user that a flaw in their program is actually what it's supposed to be doing.

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working as designed | Definition of working as designed by Webster's Online Dictionary

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It's not inherently a problem. It's simply something the DM has to plan around, like any other class feature. For some that might be problematic and for others not at all.

There are three design choices. No bonuses at all beyond what the math accounts for, which is dull beyond dull. Treadmill math where the game increases along with the PCs. And pure bonuses which are actually fun and mean something, but need to be used carefully. We got the last one. The one that's actually fun.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you mean 1-5, because Aura kicks in at 6. (If not, please explain.). And trying to address that through Aura means that Cha still wouldn't matter until level 6.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think all classes should be more MAD. On the other hand, the reality is that only some of them actually are. So I can see the reasoning behind trying to minimize the effect for those that are.

How about this:

Divine Strength​

When making melee weapon attacks, you may use your Charisma modifier as your attack bonus. When you do so, each attack does additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.​

Now you can dump Str and just focus on Cha!

level 7 in the current packet. And your right that currently a paladin has to wait till 6th to make their charisma useful...which is my NUMBER 1 complaint with the 5e paladin!

 

[Maxperson]

level 7 in the current packet. And your right that currently a paladin has to wait till 6th to make their charisma useful...which is my NUMBER 1 complaint with the 5e paladin!

Spellcasting DCs and number of prepared spells are charisma based for paladins. And at least one oath uses charisma for channel divinity. Oath of Devotion uses charisma for the bonus to hit when using Sacred Weapon.

 

[Stalker0]

Spellcasting DCs and number of prepared spells are charisma based for paladins. And at least one oath uses charisma for channel divinity. Oath of Devotion uses charisma for the bonus to hit when using Sacred Weapon.

And since many paladins use spell slots for either buffs or smites, the spell dc doesn’t matter. You can okay a 8 cha Paladin and barely notice. Only the aura really highlights the charisma stat for the pally

 

[TwoSix]

The math of that isn't hard, but like I said, I think a 10' radius is more than twice as good as a 5' radius.* And in general I'm in favor of reducing dependency on primary attributes, not increasing it.

(On a grid, it's the difference between affecting 8 squares vs. 20 or 24 squares, depending on how you do the diagonals.)

Yea, but I'd argue the area isn't super consequential, since we're not generally worried about protecting large groups of characters. What matters most is the length of the leash the other PCs must stay on if they want to gain the bonus.

I'm all in favor of increasing the range but decreasing the potency; the 2014 version is fundamentally a selfish bonus for the paladin, who gets the bonus 100% of the time. I'd rather see the effect weakened for the paladin but be much more useful for the rest of the party.

 

[Maxperson]

And since many paladins use spell slots for either buffs or smites, the spell dc doesn’t matter. You can okay a 8 cha Paladin and barely notice. Only the aura really highlights the charisma stat for the pally

I've seen a few paladins say that they use some spells, but I think most were used for smiting. However, the change to divine smite limiting it to 1 per round and the improvement of the spell smites will change that I think. If the old smites had been like the UA smites we are seeing, I would have used them. Especially since I couldn't go through all my slots in combat in the same way. The paladin save DCs will be a lot more useful if they don't backtrack.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yea, but I'd argue the area isn't super consequential, since we're not generally worried about protecting large groups of characters. What matters most is the length of the leash the other PCs must stay on if they want to gain the bonus.

Sure...but it's the same thing. If you're trying to stay in range you have the choice of 20 or 24 squares to be in, instead of 8.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure...but it's the same thing. If you're trying to stay in range you have the choice of 20 or 24 squares to be in, instead of 8.

Yea, I get that. I would simply say I don't think the value of the aura increases exponentially with the Cha modifier, so I wouldn't evaluate the overall power budget of the ability in that manner.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yea, I get that. I would simply say I don't think the value of the aura increases exponentially with the Cha modifier, so I wouldn't evaluate the overall power budget of the ability in that manner.

I think the one thing that mitigates its power is the Paladin him/herself always gets the buff. If I were choosing between +4 and a 10’ radius at level 8 (current rule), or +3 and a 20’ radius, it might be a hard choice. But if I didn’t get the buff myself I would totally go for the radius.

EDIT: Although I guess the real question is, when making an ASI/Feat choice at level 8, what's more appealing: increasing the radius by 5', or giving myself and everyone else in the smaller radius another +1? And how do those weigh against the other options (Feat, +STR, etc.)?

 

[Horwath]

I honestly would love to see a spell-less paladin.

Make various flavors of Smite work like battlemaster maneuvers or sorcerer metamagic, in that you get to pick a couple, swap them out when you level, and gain new ones at higher levels, and it consumes some sort of resource.

Add in Lay on Hands, Fighting Style, Auras, Divine Sense, Channel Divinity, Faithful Steed, and upgrades to all of the above at higher levels.

Boom. Perfectly good class that basically does everything paladins do now, but no spell list management.

My version of "spell-less" paladin:

Spell slots are turn into Lay on hands pool.

5 points of Lay on hands can be turned into 1d8 of smite damage.

So, basically you have 2 "spells": heal and smite.

Very simple, happens to work.