Combining Natural Attacks and Melee Weapon Attacks...

[Pbartender]

Can a creature that has both natural attacks (specifically a "bite" attack) and the ability to weild a weapon (specifically a two-handed weapon), use a full attack to attack with both the natural weapon and the melee weapon (treating one as the primary attack, and the other as the "off-hand" attack)? Would the Two-Weapon Fighting feat apply to these attacks?

Imagine, for example, a standard Human/Half-fiend Fighter. He has the Two-weapon fighting feat. He wants to take a full-round action to make an attack with both his greatsword and his bite attack. Can he do this, and what are the penalties?

 

[LokiDR]

If you have a natural weapon you are "proficient" with, I would treat them as additional armed attacks.

In 3e, a character with longsword and claws, TWF and Ambidex would get 1 off-hand attack at -2. The same would apply for greatsword/bite, I would think. More weapons would not be possible unless you go with multi-dex and multi-weapon or multiattack.

Most creatures don't use both natural and created weapons. Check lizardfolk for an example. 2 claws or moringstar + bite. Feat: multiattack.

 

[vanguard13]

The monster's natural weapons would be considered proficient at all times provided they are in tune to the circumstances and generally are not penalized with a full attack routine.
I am a crocodile man with 2 levels of fighter with a big nasty bite, 2 really sharp claws and a strong tail that I like to bash and trip opponents with. Well, I decide to come out of the water walking on 2 legs, pick up a sword that is conveniently placed on the ground and attack you for lunch. My bite is so natural since I chomp stuff in and out of the water all the time so I am not penalized. The sword in my right hand unbalances my left claw swipe since I am so used to shredding things using both claws at once. So this left claw is gonna slice you at a -2 penalty. I am darn good with this sword so it gets swung like any other regular 2nd level fighter. Darn, I am out of the water now so I can not use my time because I do not have the right balance.
Like this example, it depends on the circumstances but usually natural weapons go in sync with any weapon attacks.

 

[LokiDR]

The monster's natural weapons would be considered proficient at all times provided they are in tune to the circumstances and generally are not penalized with a full attack routine.

Polymorph. Alter self. Natural weapons are not always the ones you were born with.

 

[LGodamus]

I believe the bite would be at a -5

 

[Pbartender]

I believe the bite would be at a -5

In consultation with the Rat Bastrd DMs, I've found this is the right answer...

So, the attacks (and their resulting penalties) would look something like this...

Primary melee +0, secondary natural -5.
Primary melee +0, secondary natural -2 (with Multiattack).
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -9.
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -6 (with multiattack).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -7 (with TWF, revised).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -4 (with TWF and Multiattack).

 

[LokiDR]

In consultation with the Rat Bastrd DMs, I've found this is the right answer...

So, the attacks (and their resulting penalties) would look something like this...

Primary melee +0, secondary natural -5.
Primary melee +0, secondary natural -2 (with Multiattack).
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -9.
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -6 (with multiattack).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -7 (with TWF, revised).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -4 (with TWF and Multiattack).

I don't know that I agree with this. SRD on multiattack

Multiattack [General]
Prerequisite: Three or more natural weapons.
Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons suffer only a -2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary natural attacks suffer a -5 penalty.

First, there is a question if can take this if your only natural weapon is a bite (i.e. no claws).

Next, it seems that this penalty applies off the basic attack. This means that I could make an arguement for the last line to be:

Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -2 (with TWF and Multiattack).

-2 all around is simpler. Especially if you consider that a 6 clawed armed, biting creature with multiattack takes all secondary attacks at the same -2.

 

[Pbartender]

First, there is a question if can take this if your only natural weapon is a bite (i.e. no claws).

It's really beside the point, he does have two claw attacks, only he's not using them, because his claws are holding the greatsword.

Next, it seems that this penalty applies off the basic attack. This means that I could make an arguement for the last line to be:

Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -2 (with TWF and Multiattack).

-2 all around is simpler. Especially if you consider that a 6 clawed armed, biting creature with multiattack takes all secondary attacks at the same -2.

Looking at it again, I think you're right. The penalties for fighting with two weapons wouldn't (shouldn't?) carry over to the natural attacks.

So, our attacks should look something more like...

Primary melee +0, secondary natural -5.
Primary melee +0, secondary natural -2 (with Multiattack).
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -5.
Primary melee -4, off-hand melee (light) -8, secondary natural -2 (with multiattack).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -5 (with TWF, revised).
Primary melee -2, off-hand melee (light) -2, secondary natural -2 (with TWF and Multiattack).

A good place to look for melee weapon/natural weapon combinations is the Demons and Devils sections of the MM. For example...

A Gelugon's normal attack is: Longspear +17/+12/+7 melee, bite +12 melee, tail +12 melee. The secondary natural attacks are at -5 to his highest attack bonus.

A Marilith (with the Multiattack feat) has attack like so: 5 weapons +13 melee, tail slam +11 melee. Her secondary natural attack is only -2 with the Multiattack feat.

Athach, Hound Archons, Centaurs, Kou-toa, Lizardfolk, Minotaurs, Sahuagin, Salamanders, Satyrs, Trogolodytes, Xill, Half-dragons, Half-fiends, and Were-rats all provide additional examples form the MM.

Unfortunately, none of them dual weild melee weapons in conjunction with a natural attack... So there are no specific examples of that.

 

[LokiDR]

It's really beside the point, he does have two claw attacks, only he's not using them, because his claws are holding the greatsword.

You can't take multiattack unless you have 3 or more natural weapons. Silly or not, it is the prereq

Looking at it again, I think you're right.

It was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You can't take multiattack unless you have 3 or more natural weapons. Silly or not, it is the prereq

Yes, but do you have to use them? The Half-Fiend in question has been stated to have three natural weapons: 2 claws and 1 bite. But the PC is choosing to use a greatsword instead of the claws. So the PC qualifies for the feat by having 3 natural weapons, but only wants to use one (the bite) in its full-attack sequence.