Comeliness and Charisma

[Thanee]

Besides, Intimidate should be a Strength ability, or size related. That is what really intimidates people; a 90 pound man is not going to be intimidating no matter how much he tries, it may actually cause laughter.

There are some good threads about this on the rules forum. I guess the difference comes from what intimidation actually is. There certainly are multiple forms of intimidation.

I go by the charisma definition, as I see high strength, brutal looks, etc as scary, but not intimidating. Intimidation (to me) is a means to change behaviour in a controlled way, not just scaring someone.

The high strength low charisma dude might be scary, but he cannot control in any way, what reactions he will receive.

Bye
Thanee

 

[StAlda]

There are some good threads about this on the rules forum. I guess the difference comes from what intimidation actually is. There certainly are multiple forms of intimidation.

I go by the charisma definition, as I see high strength, brutal looks, etc as scary, but not intimidating. Intimidation (to me) is a means to change behaviour in a controlled way, not just scaring someone.

The high strength low charisma dude might be scary, but he cannot control in any way, what reactions he will receive.

Bye
Thanee

Well that's Leadership, and I completely again with you (and the rules) that Charisma is the Primary Ability.

Not being a smartass - just getting us on the same page.
From www.m-w.com

One entry found for intimidate.
Main Entry: in·tim·i·date
Pronunciation: in-'ti-m&-"dAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -dat·ed; -dat·ing
Etymology: Medieval Latin intimidatus, past participle of intimidare, from Latin in- + timidus timid
: to make timid or fearful : FRIGHTEN; especially : to compel or deter by or as if by threats
- in·tim·i·dat·ing·ly /-"dA-ti[ng]-lE/ adverb
- in·tim·i·da·tion /-"ti-m&-'dA-sh&n/ noun
- in·tim·i·da·tor /-'ti-m&-"dA-t&r/ noun
synonyms INTIMIDATE, COW, BULLDOZE, BULLY, BROWBEAT mean to frighten into submission. INTIMIDATE implies inducing fear or a sense of inferiority into another <intimidated by so many other bright freshmen>. COW implies reduction to a state where the spirit is broken or all courage is lost <not at all cowed by the odds against making it in show business>. BULLDOZE implies an intimidating or an overcoming of resistance usually by urgings, demands, or threats <bulldozed the city council into approving the plan>. BULLY implies intimidation through threats, insults, or aggressive behavior <bullied into giving up their lunch money>. BROWBEAT implies a cowing through arrogant, scornful or contemptuous treatment <browbeat the witness into a contradiction>.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, what I said. This definition includes a lot of different viewpoints.
I think BULLY would fit the most to what I think intimidation means in D&D.

Here, I have a quote, too.

INTIMIDATE (CHA)
Check: You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. ... If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated.

Now somewhere further down it speaks about demoralizing an opponent in combat. That's something, where the scary-type of intimidation might work better.

And BTW, you said initially, that you would prefer intimidate to be based on strength or size. Size actually does influence intimidate checks!

Bye
Thanee

 

[StAlda]

I have committed the sin of all sins. I open my mouth (figuratively of course), without actually going and reading the (in this case) Skill. Now that I have…..

The first paragraph of Intimidate is BS, crap, doo doo, diaper litter, horse hockey (I could go on….) and shouldn’t even be there. What it describes is either Leadership or Diplomacy which ARE Charisma based and should be. In my campaign that first paragraph is GONE!

In my campaign Intimidate will now be:

INTIMIDATE (COM)
Check: You can weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear).
If you win, the target becomes shaken for the number of rounds equal to the amount you beat their modified level check. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target becomes infuriated (will probably attack immediately) if initially neutral, and neutral if previously friendly.
You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

Action: Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.
Try Again: Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can be intimidated only so far, and a retry doesn’t help. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly resolved to resist the intimidator, and a retry is futile.
Special: You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a -4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target.
A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.
If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

I’m still on the fence about Comeliness as the ability score, to me the lower the comeliness the more intimidating. But what can you do?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Besides, Intimidate should be a Strength ability, or size related. That is what really intimidates people; a 90 pound man is not going to be intimidating no matter how much he tries, it may actually cause laughter.

Tell that to Artemis Entreri.

I doubt a mangy greasy cat-like creature with low Appearance is going to scare anyone. Maybe he'll try to use Intimidate but he's really soliciting pity.

 

[maddman75]

One thing I would love to see in 4e would be to disconnect the skills from an ability. What ability mod you use depends on how you use the skill. So for intimidate, it would go off of Charisma or Strength depending on how you are intimidating someone, or even another score if there's a reason for it. Both Storyteller and Unisystem have taken this path, and it works well in them.

 

[Thanee]

INTIMIDATE (COM)

I’m still on the fence about Comeliness as the ability score, to me the lower the comeliness the more intimidating. But what can you do?

So, you change Intimidate to "pretty = scary"... you know it's totally wrong that way...

Well, what can you do about it? I really don't know.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

You can only intimidate at melee range!?

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

Huh!? What does Bluff have to do with this? Disguise (looking more scary), ok, but Bluff?

How can I bluff someone into thinking I am looking more scary?
That would be an illusion spell, but not a bluff.

Bye
Thanee

 

[StAlda]

You can only intimidate at melee range!?



Huh!? What does Bluff have to do with this? Disguise (looking more scary), ok, but Bluff?

How can I bluff someone into thinking I am looking more scary?
That would be an illusion spell, but not a bluff.

Bye
Thanee

I hope you weren't asking me why *I* changed it, because that part I didn't change it's from the SRD Intimidate (from the wizards site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) not the SRD site (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) site.

 

[StAlda]

One thing I would love to see in 4e would be to disconnect the skills from an ability. What ability mod you use depends on how you use the skill. So for intimidate, it would go off of Charisma or Strength depending on how you are intimidating someone, or even another score if there's a reason for it. Both Storyteller and Unisystem have taken this path, and it works well in them.

There is something to be said about this. I going to give this a little thought, and maybe start something over in house rules.