D&D 3E/3.5 Coming back to D&D after 15 years.... Vow of poverty problems (3.5)

[BelGareth]

There was a great redux and some houserules that I use a lot in my games. It was over in Giant boards. can't post a link directly to it cause im too new, but if you google - 'giantitp.comrolyt Vow of poverty' fix it should come up.[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[NuSair]

Thanks- I'll look it up.

 

[Grogg of the North]

What level are your pcs? Usually after mid levels items are more powerful since you'll be able to fly and things like that. Some classes can definitely get more mileage out of it than others and the feat does assume certain things, like the magic level of the world. Since this is a low magic world your Druid is probably leaps and bounds beyond everyone else.

i would talk with your players, especially the Druid, and let them know your concerns. See if your Druid is willing to redo his character. Sometimes players surprise you by being reasonable .

One thing you could also say is that you'll only allow core stuff. Anything outside of core requires your approval and the pcs have to find someone to train them.

 

[NuSair]

Actually, everyone but him has been very upfront in asking for/about things. I have said no to him on several things (he was talking about getting hide armor made and I told him no, he's mentioned using someone else's magic item and I've told him no again), as I am getting more comfortable and getting back into things- I am thinking of really making it a hard feat to keep. Like putting him in situations where he'd have to use something, but if he does, he will lose the feat (maybe temporally at first). One of the things I always prided myself on was the ability to make things work in a game, even when broken. Granted, I've been out of the GMing loop for ~10 years.

I have said several times in front of everyone that I have had to chance the power level of the campaign because of the feat. It's like your sig says.

Three are level 11, two are level 10 and they are wanting to add one more player to the group. Which I am fine with, but we need to figure out a way to come up with more table space atm.

The more I read into 3.5 and DnD since I left (I was playing A&D and playtesting 2nd edition- which was one of the reasons I left AD&D- what I saw coming down the pipeline I really didn't like).

How evil would it be to put him in morally ambiguous situations making him chose, essentially, of keeping the feat or saving NPCs/PCs lives?

 

[Ahnehnois]

How evil would it be to put him in morally ambiguous situations making him chose, essentially, of keeping the feat or saving NPCs/PCs lives?

I'm a firm believer that DM's don't have alignments.

 

[Ragmon]

I wish to add my 2 cents to this topic.

Cent 1: If your running, a combat oriented story where there aren't many magic items, then yes the VoP is strong.
Cent 2: If your story is more RP orientated then the PC with VoP is very limited and must play a very specific character. In other words out of combat he wont have as much fun, in my opinion.

Imo, if its a real problem slowly switch the campaign to a normal magical setting, via story. This way you get your balance, the players can go "Woa, the world changed". Maybe something on the lines of "new gods", old god that gave the world a low magic restriction dies, major artifact is destroyed releasing its essence into the world making it more magical. Stuff like that.

Other wise ask your self, if everyone is having fun, then leave it be.

 

[NuSair]

Please, I welcome the comments.

I agree completely, and I think Grogg's sig says it perfectly - Awesome trumps rules. Story trumps rules. Role before your roll.

There is heavy story and a huge epic story line that I have written out. But it's a fact that combat is a feature of D&D and in the combats we've had, he far outstripped the other characters to the point where other players, especially the monk, to where I felt needed to give him and others a boost. I was going to back everyone down, but everyone seems to be really enjoying it atm.

I am/was just worried that this was going to be a constant thing with VoP.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Remember that VoP only comes with Exalted status--gooder than a Paladin. This is a substantial limit (and as far as I'm concerned an absolute reason to exclude it from PCs--the DM has to ensure there is a good path out of the situation as to do otherwise is to destroy the character.) but it's still unbalanced in a low-magic world.

It's also stupidly designed, absolutely prohibiting actions which are within the spirit of the rule and yet permitting others that to me are in violation of it.

 

[Elf Witch]

I have often allowed the feat in my game with little problem I run a an average magic item game. I have seen it used in a low item game with a monk and it made him pretty powerful. As others have said a low item game really impacts the non magical PCs. By the time we hit 15 level my character and the other non magical not counting the monk had fallen behind the paladin and the druid. The fighter in you party with limited magical items are going to have issuers getting their ACs high enough to match the ACs of the paladin and druid who have magical ways to increase theirs.

As for putting him in a position to lose it I have very mixed feelings about this. Unless you build the encounter so that he truly has a choice in what to do then you are screwing him over. He loses the feat and the feat slot. And you are using your DM power to take something away you allowed in the game in the first place. The honest thing to do is just take the feat away and allow him to rebuild his character. It is the same thing that happens to players playing paladins with DMs who put them in a no win situation where they have little choice but to violate their alignment. If do go this route you should allow him some way to atone to get the feat back which is what you don't want so the easiest and imo the right thing to do is talk to your player and tell him you didn't realize how powerful the feat was and you are taking it out in the game.

Most players are pretty cleaver and they often see through DM stunts like that and will cause you to lose the players trust. Sure players may get mad at being told something has to go but that does not last like the way losing trust does.

 

[Grogg of the North]

@NuSair If you take a look at the BoED, it talks about playing an exalted character and one thing it talks about is how an Exalted character would never willingly trade their exalted status to accomplish X. Sometimes the PCs may gear up for a doomed last stand and blindly ignore the door marked "Exit". If he's asking for things that violate the spirit of the vow, such as "borrowing" a magic cloak or trying to wear hide armor then I would make it pretty clear that the next time he tries that he's going to get some serious repercussions. It has always been my experience that when a character has something like VoP they need to roleplay part of it. Like what they do with the wealth they get from adventuring. Do they donate to a church? Feed the hungry? Spend it on having people raised from the dead?

@Loren Pechtel I've always treated it as Vow of Poverty, not Vow of Stupidity. If your VoP character is making a trek across the desert on a religious pilgrimage, then there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to bring enough water to reach the next oasis despite the text saying you can only have enough for one day.