D&D 3E/3.5 Command Undead 3.5

[Vacon]

Hello All How About Some Help...

Player Mage castes 2nd level command undead and commands a specter said specter then kill's other creatures by being commanded to defend his new friend. 1d4 rounds later there are now new specter spawns that are being controlled by player as well via commanding the original specter to have them also attack.

The problem should be apparent all ready. Where is the DM's help I have a mage controlling 500 undead button?

Some spec's 14th level mage so 1st undead commanded for 14 day's

By MM the spawn are controlled by specter that created them forever or unless some other spell or such but hey this is a 2nd level spell.

Let me hear back...Thanks

Vacon

 

[AGGEMAM]

Well Command Undead has many limitations, be sure to read the spell description thouroughly.

First and foremost, the undead is commanded not dominated, that means that is is only compelled to do as you ordered (if it fails the opposed Cha check) and each situation grants another opposed check.

You can be damn sure that the first thing the spectre will do is to order it's spawns to slay the wizard. Get a few specters next to the unsurpecting wizard and order them to attack, the wizard will not have time to issue a countercommand against the commanded spectre, and you suddenly have a 6th level instead of a 14th level Wizard.

Also someone [hint hint] might accidentally cast Dispel Magic in the area spell form, since Command Undead is 2nd level it's one of the first to be affected.

 

[Li Shenron]

Hello All How About Some Help...

Player Mage castes 2nd level command undead and commands a specter said specter then kill's other creatures by being commanded to defend his new friend. 1d4 rounds later there are now new specter spawns that are being controlled by player as well via commanding the original specter to have them also attack.

The problem should be apparent all ready. Where is the DM's help I have a mage controlling 500 undead button?

Some spec's 14th level mage so 1st undead commanded for 14 day's

By MM the spawn are controlled by specter that created them forever or unless some other spell or such but hey this is a 2nd level spell.

Let me hear back...Thanks

Vacon

Command Undead is more or less the undead version of Charm Person and Charm Monster, and as such it is always very dependent on how the DM plays it. As a rule of thumb, I think the DM should rely very often on the Charisma check to decide if the Commanded/Charmed creature obeys her commands, although the spells description says the check is needed only for harmful orders (and while attacking might qualify, ordering spawned creatures to attack sounds quite safe, and not something the spectre "wound't normally do"). The DM can force a little bit and say that what it "woudn't normally do" is following your orders themselves, and always call for a Charisma check.

Probably, the designers were thinking of having a necromancer version of Charm Monster (which is mind-affecting and therefore undead are immune), and didn't think about the spawning ability of many undead being exploitable in this case.

At the same time, in the MM there is no limit about how many spawned creatures an undead can have under its control. This is usually not an issue for monsters, the DM simply chooses how many are under its control at the time of the encounter (the number increases with the PCs being killed in the meantime, usually ). I think there is some information in Ghostwalk about this, when talking about undead PC, because in that case it becomes a very important balance issue.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Ah, but then the problem arises. What, then, would happen in the same situation, except that the Undead was being commanded by a Cleric of at least twice the Undead's HD? When a Cleric commands undead, he specifically has mental control over them. What happens, then, if he tells his pet Shadow to kill the next Humanoid that walks up? Is that next Shadow automatically under his control? What if it exceeds his limit for HD? One could very feasibly say that the shadow isn't directly under his control (it's under the control of the Shadow that created it), and therefore doesn't count against his HD limit.

And if you say that the Shadow isn't under his control, or the control of the Shadow that created it, what happens to it? Does it suddenly attack? If so, it would be deadly to try and Command a Shadow, considering that Strength damage is basically all they do, and killing any humanoid could end up causing you to face another opponent even more deadly than the one you were just fighting.

So what happens? This has come up in a couple of our games before. A friend of mine used to walk around with a Bag of Holding with a couple dozen Shadows in it, and whenever things got really bad, he'd just let the Shadows out and have them kill whatever was bothering us. Luckily, he didn't abuse it too badly. But once I started playing a Cleric, we got attacked by a Shadow, and I Commanded it, but then I thought about it, and it just didn't seem balanced for someone to be walking around with a million HD worth of Undead, simply because he's not directly controlling them. The best solution I came up with was that Undead simply cannot create spawn while Controlled. They can still do whatever damage they want, and they can still kill anything they're commanded to, but humanoids simply aren't turned into more Shadows unless the Cleric specifically lets them, in which case he better be able to control the extra HD.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The biggest drawback to having a million hit dice of undead who are nominally under your supervision because there's a chain of command back to one creature that you have some degree of control over...

... is that as soon as that one creature is destroyed, the second generation lose any obligation, and you've got something over nine hundred thousand hit dice of undead mad at you...

-Hyp.

 

[Endur]

Did you ever see the Wesley Snipes, Slyvester Stallone movie Demolition Man?

Evil bad guy mind controls Wesley Snipes and orders Snipes to kill his enemies. Snipes says he needs some flunkies. Evil bad guy lets Snipes have some flunkies. Snipes can't kill Evil Bad Guy, so he tells flunkies to kill Evil Bad Guy. No more Evil Bad Guy.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Did you ever see the Wesley Snipes, Slyvester Stallone movie Demolition Man?

I love the scene where he's casually pointing the gun at the BBEG and trying to pull the trigger, and getting frustrated...

Of course, any cleric that's seen the movie will be sure to impose a personal version of Asimov's Laws on his boss spectre, and make sure they're passed down the line...

-Hyp.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The biggest drawback to having a million hit dice of undead who are nominally under your supervision because there's a chain of command back to one creature that you have some degree of control over...

... is that as soon as that one creature is destroyed, the second generation lose any obligation, and you've got something over nine hundred thousand hit dice of undead mad at you...

-Hyp.

...which is exactly why he always kept his #1 original shadow (the one controlling all the others) in the bag of holding.

 

[Hypersmurf]

...which is exactly why he always kept his #1 original shadow (the one controlling all the others) in the bag of holding.

It works for small numbers, but as soon as you start going multi-generational, you've got the same problem any time any shadow above the bottom tier of the pyramid is destroyed - all the shadows below him on the tree become uncontrolled.

-Hyp.

 

[jgsugden]

Uhhhh ... maybe it is just me, but wouldn't the rest of the world begin to care if legions of people are being slaughtered and turned into undead? As a theoretical exercise, this may be fun, but I can't imagine many campaign settings where this type of catastrophe would go unchecked.