D&D 3E/3.5 Command Undead 3.5

[welby]

Hi, I'm the player-mage in question. First off, I want to say it certainly was not my intention to control a spectre who would then control other spectres. The only reason I attempted to do so, was because my alternative was certain doom. For roleplaying reasons, I got seperated from my party. I'm all alone in dragon mountain (yes, dragon mountain! please no spoilers, I really dont know anything about it other than its brutal) and I have very few spells left.

I'm not running around town killing innocents with the spectre, like one poster above thought. I'm killing kobolds. This only makes the problem worse, because it doesn't take much to make a kobold spectre.

To those who said that the original spectre would just send his minions to kill me, what about the part in the spell description that says "treat its attitude as friendly". That doesn't sound very friendly.

My DM has already made me make two charisma checks (one to not attack me after I charmed it because it wasn't in his nature to not attack living things, and another to get it to leave the area it was guarding) plus the spells saving throw. Add this to the fact that I have -7 charisma, and it's lucky I even have control at all.

I suggested to my DM today that the spectre would send the minions he creates to guard the tomb where I originally found the spectre.

I dont need or want this to get out of hand, but I do feel like I'm going to need a little DM niceness if I'm going to make it back to my party alive. When you consider than I'd alone because I stayed in character, and I haven't simply teleported home because I understand OOC that the story is currently in the mountain, is it too much to ask for a break? So I got lucky and controlled a spectre, who can control other spectres. Let me meet up with my party, and then kill them off.

 

[AGGEMAM]

"treat its attitude as friendly"

This is only mentioned in parantheses and only notes that it will perceive your orders in the most favorable way, as opposed to obeying them 'to the word', eg if you say 'attack that creature', percieved in a friendly (or favorable) way that means it will attack the creature until it kills it, percieved in a hostile (or unfavorable way) that means it will attack it once (since attack is singular) and wait for further orders.

See it now? Command undead is a risky business, the more you have the riskier it gets.

 

[Nail]

...unless they are mindless zombies. Then it's not so bad.

Seriously: this spell is off. No save to control any HD zombie or skeleton. No save. Lasts for days. Only a 2nd level spell.

There's a problem there.

 

[DreamChaser]

The big balance factor in this for my money is that undead are evil--all of them with minds at least--and evil, no matter how friendly, is not well know for being cooperative. The idea of evil creatures betraying their "friends" for gain is hardly a new or shocking one.

If someone in my game cast this, I would have the undead behave exactly as an evil person charmed by charm person. They would cowtow and do all the "friendly" stuff but if they were ordered to attack, they would strongly consider what was in it for them. If they thought of a way it could benefit them (such as by creating a spawn that it might at some point forget to tell to not attack the wizard) then they would. Otherwise, they would hang back, use "stragetic movement" and otherwise keep themselves out of harms way.

Regardless, this should never be a safe, long term spell to use. The only safe use of this spell would have been to end combat and have the spector "keep watch" at the crypt where he was originally found. As an evil (and thus often lazy) creature, it would love this idea so no check would need to be made.

just my .02.

DC

 

[jgsugden]

Just to remind you all, command undead isn't the real villian here.

The problem is the undead spawning rules that make little sense. It is like a plague that can be transmitted seconds after it is contacted - Once a small pocket of these undead begins to take over a community, their 'population growth' would be so rapid that it would be impossible to stop.

Like all problems created by the D&D rules - if it comes up in a game and proves disruptive, a DM has a duty to fix it. When this problem came up in my game (a TPK in a large city left a large number of wights running around that could easily overpower the remaining undefended populace), I just slipped in a solution on the spot - Undead that have spawned a certain number of 'offspring' (including underlings spawned down the chain of spawning) can break the command of their 'leader'. The 'freed' underlings tend to turn on their old master. This results in a desire on their part to keep their 'clan' manageable in size so that their underlings don't break free from them.

 

[Nail]

jgsugden's got some great points, but I disagree with the original premise.

That is, Command Undead is a problem.

....If someone in my game cast this, I would have the undead behave exactly as an evil person charmed by charm person. They would cowtow and do all the "friendly" stuff but if they were ordered to attack, they would strongly consider what was in it for them......

As long as they aren't mindless, like zombies or skeletons. Not only do mindless undead get no save, but they're unlikely to be able to think thru the problem: "What's in it for me?"

They have a Chr of 1. So casters will win the Cha checks. Caster says: "Go kill those orcs!" , and the zombie goes and does that.

Especially if it's a colossal zombie with 40 HD. (There is no HD limit to the spell.)

 

[Nail]

BTW, a more managable solution to the spwan problem is to introduce a percent chance to create spawn, that decreases with "spawn generation".

Self-limiting.

 

[welby]

Especially if it's a colossal zombie with 40 HD. (There is no HD limit to the spell.)

Aren't there HD limits built into the game that would superceed that fact that there is no HD limit built into the spell? IE. You aren't able to control more than your total HD in undead (or is it twice your total HD).

I think we all agree on a few things. For a second level spell, this can get wildly out of control.

We also seem to agree that the way spawning works can get out of control too.

Can we also agree that a 14th level caster controling a spectre (aren't they like cr7 or something?), even for 14 days, isn't inherently a problem? Like many things in D&D, it can be overpowered if used by powergamers for powergaming purposes, but does this mean we need to punish a player for attempting to use it before he has done anything munchkiny?

 

[jgsugden]

That is, Command Undead is a problem.

As long as they aren't mindless, like zombies or skeletons. Not only do mindless undead get no save, but they're unlikely to be able to think thru the problem: "What's in it for me?"

They have a Chr of 1. So casters will win the Cha checks. Caster says: "Go kill those orcs!" , and the zombie goes and does that.

Especially if it's a colossal zombie with 40 HD. (There is no HD limit to the spell.)

For the most part, mindless undead are weaklings not worth considering. There are exceptions, as you mention, like the colossal zombie that can cause problems, but those can be avoided by not including such odd-ball creatures in the game.

BTW: A zombie can have a maximum of 20 HD (anything with 10 or more hit dice when alive ends up as a 20 HD zombie). That is supposedly a CR 6 creature (though it is more like a creature with a CR of 10 or 2 depending upon circumstances - zombie CRs have that odd scalability problem).