D&D 5E Comment on the negative article by John Dodd

[Mistwell]

Some people just can't handle D&D getting any negativity no matter how true it may be.

Some people can't handle negative criticism of a review they like, no matter how true it may be. It is objectively true to say the Pathfinder set is a significantly higher price that the D&D set. It's anywhere from 50% to over 100% more money. That's not a slight price difference.

 

[Jester David]

Some people can't handle negative criticism of a review they like, no matter how true it may be. It is objectively true to say the Pathfinder set is a significantly higher price that the D&D set. It's anywhere from 50% to over 100% more money. That's not a slight price difference.

It's such a weak criticism, though.

"The Pathfinder box has full colour character sheets that cross reference the rules, art for all the monsters, and a cleaner layout that makes it easier to read and more appealing. It includes character creation and enables writing your own adventures. It's a better product to introduce people to the hobby."
"Yeah... Well, it costs twice as much."

As I said earlier, I *like* the D&D Starter Set. It's the best Starter Set they've done in ten years. Possibly fifteen years. Arguably ever.
But Paizo really raised the bar.

We'll see what WotC releases next time, when they're not also making the core books.

 

[Mistwell]

It's such a weak criticism, though.

Maybe to you. To me, it's the most important factor. I can blow $12-$20 on a Starter Set. Above that amount, I really can't justify it. That $20 price point is my line-in-the-sand for impulse and nonessential purchases. And I am not alone in that, as study after study shows it's one of the most key price points in the United States for consumers. So I appreciate it's not a good criticism to you - but it is to me, and it's based on the same decisionmaking process WOTC was analyzing when they chose that price point, which they also found to be an important factor.

I am also curious - what price would you think is too high for the pathfinder set? $100? Does price matter to you at all, and if so, what's the line you would draw where the D&D one at $20 is more appealing?

 

[Jester David]

Maybe to you. To me, it's the most important factor. I can blow $12-$20 on a Starter Set. Above that amount, I really can't justify it. That $20 price point is my line-in-the-sand for impulse and nonessential purchases. And I am not alone in that, as study after study shows it's one of the most key price points in the United States for consumers. So I appreciate it's not a good criticism to you - but it is to me, and it's based on the same decisionmaking process WOTC was analyzing when they chose that price point, which they also found to be an important factor.

I am also curious - what price would you think is too high for the pathfinder set? $100? Does price matter to you at all, and if so, what's the line you would draw where the D&D one at $20 is more appealing?

The thing is, WotC has apparently clung to the $20 price point since the 3e boxed sets. Their starter set is increasingly becoming less valuable as inflation devalues what you can purchase for $20.
In five more years, the starter set will be a box with four dice, and a flier with a code for DnDClassics..
I'm not sure they've done more research, and are just sticking to the assumed price point of the last generation.

Eventually they will have to increase the price. $20 is cheap. A blu-Ray costs more. Fast food for two costs more. A couple Starbucks coffees and a slice of lemon poppyseed loaf costs more. I spend more when I go to the grocery store for milk, bread, eggs, and other essentials.
$20 is a fine price for an impulse purchase. But not for something of value. I worry about the durability of anything that costs less than $25.
Something you can buy for $20 is disposable. You buy it, consume, and chuck. It's not meant to last. Which doesn't necessarily get people to continue playing the game.

Yes, the Pathfinder box is pricey, which makes things a slightly unfair comparison. But what else should we compare the Starter Set with?
The $30 Edge of Empire boxed set, the $30 DragonAge boxed set, or maybe the $80 L5R boxed set?
If we only compare D&D Starter Sets with other D&D a Starter a Sets it seems like comparing Denny's with McDonalds.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, the Pathfinder box is pricey, which makes things a slightly unfair comparison. But what else should we compare the Starter Set with?
The $30 Edge of Empire boxed set, the $30 DragonAge boxed set, or maybe the $80 L5R boxed set?
If we only compare D&D Starter Sets with other D&D a Starter a Sets it seems like comparing Denny's with McDonalds.

You said it was a weak criticism. But you agree, you're comparing something which you think is "cheap" to something which you think is "pricey". So, not a weak criticism in my mind. It's as simple as that. If I compare two of anything, and one I consider cheap and the other I consider pricey, that's an important factor for me, not a weak factor.

 

[Manbearcat]

You said it was a weak criticism. But you agree, you're comparing something which you think is "cheap" to something which you think is "pricey". So, not a weak criticism in my mind. It's as simple as that. If I compare two of anything, and one I consider cheap and the other I consider pricey, that's an important factor for me, not a weak factor.

As a gateway product, its perfectly priced for a "stocking stuffer", a "oh I have to get something for my friend's kid for his birthday" deal, and probably mostly important its in the range of "MOM, MOM, MOM PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE" "Jimmy, I told you we're just here to buy x" 'BUT MOM ITS ONLY 12/15 WHATEVER DOLLARS...AND <STORY ABOUT ALL THE KIDS HAVING IT> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE"...."You get this whiny crap from your father Jimmy...put it in the cart and shut up..."

Once that initial buy-in is gained and the nerd-seed planted, in a few months Jimmy is likely doing the "MOM, MOM, MOM" thing again. Or maybe Jimmy's mom takes notice that he is socializing, is growing his imagination, is learning to think critically and problem solve and she herself gains buy-in. $50 for a PHB may be in play now.

Pretty sure Pathfinder Beginner Box is out of that marketplace.

 

[Jester David]

You said it was a weak criticism. But you agree, you're comparing something which you think is "cheap" to something which you think is "pricey". So, not a weak criticism in my mind. It's as simple as that. If I compare two of anything, and one I consider cheap and the other I consider pricey, that's an important factor for me, not a weak factor.

It's a weak criticism because it only focuses on one of the few elements the D&D Starter Set where has an edge on the Pathfinder Beginner Box: price.
The D&D box could have had a similar layout and ease of accessibility. It could have cross referenced between the rulebook and the character sheets. The D&D Starter Set could have been more than the Basic Rules edited down for size and paired with an adventure.
All of that could have been done and kept the same price point.


I could go on and on about the price. I could point out that the average 14yo should have an allowance in the $7-14 range, so they can purchase a $20 product in two weeks. Something that you don't save up to purchase, something that is not anticipated, is less valued. Or how $20 is low for a gift product. Meaning it will either be paired with another product of equal so-so value making the set fight for attention, or ignored for a more substantial gift.
But this is all irrelevant because the price is irrelevant in regards to the actual quality of the product. Value, yes. Desirability, yes. But quality... if the desire is there to really make the product amazing, to make a product stand out as much as the Pathfinder Beginner Box then there was nothing stopping WotC.

Just look at what the PF Beginner Box looks like:

(from the free expansion material on Paizo's website.)
It's bright and vibrant and clean and so very accessible. They spent so much time tweaking the format of options than they decided to change the presentation of magic items in the main product line.
The Starter Set is solid but it's got some pretty giant walls of text. And most of the rules is right out of Basic unmodified.

I'm not going to say they phoned it in. Some work was put into the adventure (by freelancer Rich Baker). And making the rules easy (by the design team). But neither did they go above and beyond. They didn't try and make the best Starter Set ever, to reinvent and improve the starter set experience. They just set out to make a better Starter Set than the last Starter Set. Which would have been fine had Paizo not done something very different a few years earlier.

 

[drjones]

Also I don't really think it lacked battle maps, minis, pogs etc. just to be cheap. It lacked them because they are positioning Basic to default to TotM. As for it being a bad value, I spent more on my lunch today than I did to buy the starter set and so far my group has played for 12 hours or so and are less than half way through it. AND it came with a free rulebook if the 13 bucks was too rich for your blood.

There are things I would have liked better spelled out in the adventure/rulebook and some unlabeled maps (besides the ones I got for free from the net) would have been nice but for the cost it was more than satisfying.

 

[Rygar]

It's a weak criticism because it only focuses on one of the few elements the D&D Starter Set where has an edge on the Pathfinder Beginner Box: price.
The D&D box could have had a similar layout and ease of accessibility. It could have cross referenced between the rulebook and the character sheets. The D&D Starter Set could have been more than the Basic Rules edited down for size and paired with an adventure.
All of that could have been done and kept the same price point.


I could go on and on about the price. I could point out that the average 14yo should have an allowance in the $7-14 range, so they can purchase a $20 product in two weeks. Something that you don't save up to purchase, something that is not anticipated, is less valued. Or how $20 is low for a gift product. Meaning it will either be paired with another product of equal so-so value making the set fight for attention, or ignored for a more substantial gift.
But this is all irrelevant because the price is irrelevant in regards to the actual quality of the product. Value, yes. Desirability, yes. But quality... if the desire is there to really make the product amazing, to make a product stand out as much as the Pathfinder Beginner Box then there was nothing stopping WotC.

Just look at what the PF Beginner Box looks like:

(from the free expansion material on Paizo's website.)
It's bright and vibrant and clean and so very accessible. They spent so much time tweaking the format of options than they decided to change the presentation of magic items in the main product line.
The Starter Set is solid but it's got some pretty giant walls of text. And most of the rules is right out of Basic unmodified.

I'm not going to say they phoned it in. Some work was put into the adventure (by freelancer Rich Baker). And making the rules easy (by the design team). But neither did they go above and beyond. They didn't try and make the best Starter Set ever, to reinvent and improve the starter set experience. They just set out to make a better Starter Set than the last Starter Set. Which would have been fine had Paizo not done something very different a few years earlier.

To add to this...

There's something to be said for loss-leaders. Ideally, the intro product should be a loss-leader, where you impress the consumer at a low price point, and make it up once you've invested them. Like earlier generations of consoles, where they were sold at a loss, sometimes a substantial loss (PS3), and the money was made back through later purchases. WOTC isn't doing themselves any favors by having a less impressive intro product than Paizo.

 

[Jester David]

As a gateway product, its perfectly priced for a "stocking stuffer", a "oh I have to get something for my friend's kid for his birthday" deal, and probably mostly important its in the range of "MOM, MOM, MOM PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE" "Jimmy, I told you we're just here to buy x" 'BUT MOM ITS ONLY 12/15 WHATEVER DOLLARS...AND <STORY ABOUT ALL THE KIDS HAVING IT> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE"...."You get this whiny crap from your father Jimmy...put it in the cart and shut up..."

Once that initial buy-in is gained and the nerd-seed planted, in a few months Jimmy is likely doing the "MOM, MOM, MOM" thing again. Or maybe Jimmy's mom takes notice that he is socializing, is growing his imagination, is learning to think critically and problem solve and she herself gains buy-in. $50 for a PHB may be in play now.

Pretty sure Pathfinder Beginner Box is out of that marketplace.

The thing the kid earned by 5 minutes of "please mommy, please" will have measurably less value than something that was saved for over the course of several weeks, earned through extra chores, or was the centerpiece of a gift day.
Yeah, there maybe some some kids blow away by the impulse purchase they saw while waiting in line to checkout. But it's more than likely to be replaced by the next impulse purchase.
Ditto being a stocking stuffer. I've enjoyed some stocking stuffers a lot, but they're really a garnish for the real presents. They're the opening act for a band you really want to see. They get glanced at then put aside.

It's transient. Immemorable. Forgettable.

Even at age four my son doesn't really appreciate the Hotwheels cars I grab at the supermarket as a token "you behaved super well" purchase, but the Rescue Bot he earned several months back for having dry nights is still beloved. Because it was hard earned. The comparative dollar value is lost on him as money is still a vague concept, but he treasures the earned toy.

Especially when D&D is best aimed at kids 12+. At 12 if you're still going "mom mom mom please mom mom" in the store your parents deserve a smack upside the head. Ya tell the kid to stop whining and go mow some lawns/shovel some sidewalks.
At that age I wanted a Super Nintendo. $200 back in the day ($340 now). I'd have scowled if I'd been handed a $13 present ($20 back in the early '90s) from my parents.

I work in an elementary school. Most of the brats... I mean students... are hooked on their electronics and are used to a big $50+ video game purchase for a birthday or Christmas. A $40-60 gift is about right price wise. It's a centerpiece gift but within the budget of the kid if they're willing to save for a month or two. If you're spending $50 on a gift, someone is going to skip right over the starter box and go direct to the PHB. Getting both is extravagant.