Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

(GENUINE AMAZEMENT)

I just realized something. With disciplined players and a good DM, that combat from Fellowship of the Ring (the film, where it was 9 characters versus 67 orcs and 1 cave troll, in a complicated room setup) could be handled in 30 minutes in 3.5, without miniatures or a map or anything else but imagination and dice.

Yes, I said that. I actually believe it. I said THAT. I can't believe I said that, but I SAID that.
Yes, I just said the Impossible is Possible. I just had a fundamental shift in my attitude towards how long 3.0 and 3.5 combats take (they take 1/20th or less the time I thought they would, without miniatures) assuming good players and a good DM.

MerricB, that was one very outstanding post. (Actually, it was more than outstanding, it was stunning.)
You made it sound as smooth as glass, the flow of combat. Just roll in sequence, ready initiative, and do it. Smooth as glass.

-

My experiences with combat were generally not like that, except in the RPGA only (where, also, combat went smoothly and quickly.)

MY experiences with combat, in general, involved undisciplined or lazy or not-paying-attention players, and a DM who did not know the rules as well as your hypothetical DM did.

-

I thought 3.5 would be difficult or impossible to play without miniatures. I was dead sure of it.
Merrick's post just changed that completely.

You really COULD run that Fellowship of the Ring combat, without miniatures, and have it done within a half-hour, all the complicated rules of 3.5 included!

My opinion of 3.5 just shot WAY upwards. Because I just realized it can be funner and involve just about any kind of combat, or any kind of situation, and still be run at speed (that is, quickly) so that there is a lot that happens in any one gaming session.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Some suggestions that helped out my group:

Have one of the players run the initiative track. Since that is the major piece of paperwork at the start of a fight it leaves you time to get any minatures you need out, make sure you have all the notes you need and get yourself into the mind frame of the opponents. During the combat it is that players job to make sure everybody has a turn prepared and to spend time explaining what just happened to any players who weren't paying attention. This leaves you free to focus on the health and tactics of the enemies.

When DMing I was always being distracted by people wanting me to rehash what had already happened and other minutea leaving me no time to organise spells, etc. Also if you have a player who only ever pays attention during their turn you could give the job to them forcing them to be involved for the whole combat.

My second suggestion is to have your players roll attack and damage dice at the same time. It's not a major speed up but it can help (especially if some of your players like to invoke the gods of luck before rolling). It also helps the description of the game - instead of

Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm that was a 10 plus my modifiers, hmm... AC15
DM: you just manage to penetrate the orcs defences ...
Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm that was a 4 plus my modifiers, hmm... 10 damage
DM: virtually cutting him in half. It collapses twitching to the ground.

You get

Player: come on lucky dice
Player: hmm plus my modifiers,
Player: AC 15
DM: #small nod#
Player: 10 damage
DM: With a might sweep you bring your sword down hard on the villaneous foe almost spliting him in half. It collapses twitching to the ground


It doesn't look like much but it stops those odd occurances where a barely successfully hit does massive damage and those massively successful hits do minimum damage.


My third suggestion is to use cue cards (small 3" by 5" cards often used for recipies) with all the (important) details of the monster. AC, move, hp, weapons, armour, skills, feats, etc. If you have a group of hobgoblins, goblins, wolves and a barghest it's a lot easier moving 4 small cards around than it is flicking through the Monster manual. If you have one critter with lots of special abilities you can leave the monster manual open on that page for quick reference and deal with the mundanes on cards. It's a bit of work to write up the monster the first time your party meets one but after a couple of sessions you have a prepared pile which also makes running random encounters easier.


They helped my party, I hope they help yours

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

When I learned to type, I had to spend long hours (including my lunch break) intensively repeating the practices taught the previous days. I spent 1 1/2 hours per day doing those exercises, in school.
Because I did, I went from being a non-typist to 56 words a minute with 3 mistakes on the final exam. I got an A+ on the final, and a B+ in the class.
Since that time, typing has been easy for me.

(This was before computers were common, and typing was a mandatory skill. My teacher informed my parents I would never pass the class, or if I somehow did, I would never be a competent typist. I proved her wrong, and my typing skills have served me well ever since, in this world of computers and the internet.)

But I did have to learn to type, and it required intensive exercise to learn it by rote.
Some of the rules of 3.5 D&D are the same way, which is why you see me writing down big charts in my posts. I'm trying to intensively drill the rules into my head.

I figure that once I know the core rules in the PHB by rote, everything else will fall into perspective. Sort of the way I can type without thinking about it, and concentrate on what I'm saying instead.

-

On to Combat.

The pictures of the weapons in the PHB on pages 115 and on: are those squares meant to represent 1 foot x 1 foot, with the weapon's actual size thus denoted?

Comments (but count as questions)

Melee Weapons: threaten out to 5 feet typically, sometimes can be thrown.
Ranged Weapons: thrown or projectile weapons.
Reach Weapons: threaten 10 feet (sometimes more), but do not threaten at 5 feet.
Double Weapons: count as two weapons for purposes of penalties: you strike with both ends of the weapon. Can be used in two hands: only one end can be used to hit.
Thrown Weapons: Strength Bonus applies to Attack Roll and Damage Roll.
Thrown Melee Weapons: - 4 Attack penalty. (Throwing Light or One-Handed Weapon is Standard Action, throwing Two-Handed Weapon is Full Round Action. Range increment 10 feet.)
Projectile Weapon: Most require both hands to use.
Ammunition: Arrows are drawn as a Free Action. Bolts and Sling Bullets require a Standard Action.

Questions:

For Thrown Weapons (NOT thrown melee weapons) how many can you throw in a round?
For Thrown Melee Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to damage?
For Projectile Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to the Attack roll?
For Composite Bows modified for Strength, can you apply your Strength Bonus to both the Attack and Damage rolls?
Can a Crossbow be built for Strength, and thus gain the bonuses of a Composite Bow?

Comments (but count as questions)

Light Weapons / One-Handed Weapons / Two-Handed Weapons: Direct designation of how much effort it takes to use the weapon, for the appropriately sized being.

Light Weapons: Used one-handed. Strength Bonus to Damage Rolls with Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength Bonus with Secondary Hand. (QUESTION: What about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?) Can be used while Grappling regardless of which hand it is in. If wielded two-handed, grants only Strength Bonus to damage (no extra bonus.)
(Unarmed Attacks are considered attacks with Light Weapons.)

One-Handed Weapons: Used one-handed, may be used in either hand. Strength bonus to damage if used in Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength bonus if used in Secondary Hand, 1 1/2 x Strength Bonus if used in both hands. (QUESTION: Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

Two-Handed Weapons: Must be used in both hands. 1 1/2 x Strength bonus on hits. (QUESTION: Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

Generalities on Weapon Size:

A Light Weapon tends to be 2 size categories smaller than it's wielder (Tiny Sized for Humans, Diminutive Sized for Halflings, Fine Sized for Tiny beings, ? Sized for Fine beings, Huge Sized for Colossal beings.)

A One-Handed Weapon tends to be 1 size category smaller than it's wielder (Small Sized for Humans, Tiny Sized for Halflings, Diminutive Sized for Tiny beings, ? Sized for Fine beings, Gargantuan Sized for Colossal beings.)

A Two-Handed Weapon tends to be the same Size Category as the being wielding it ...

Inappropriately Sized Weapons:

Human wielding Medium longsword (Sized Small) : Normal attack (damage is as per the Medium longsword)
Human wielding Small longsword (Sized Tiny) : - 2 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Small longsword)
Human wielding Tiny longsword (Sized Diminutive) : - 4 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Tiny longsword)
Human wielding Diminutive longsword (not bloody likely, Sized Fine) : - 6 penalty to Attack (damage is as per the Diminutive longsword)
Human wielding Fine longsword (LOL, Sized ?) : - 8 penalty to Attack ...
Dragon wielding Fine longsword (LOLOL) : - 16 penalty to Attack ...

Non-Proficiency Penalty: A Universal - 4.

Human wielding Small longsword (Sized Tiny): counts as Light Weapon (- 2 penalty to Attack rolls)
Human wielding Medium longsword (Sized Small) : counts as One-Handed Weapon
Human wielding Large longsword (Sized Medium) : counts as Two-Handed Weapon
Human wielding Huge longsword (Sized Large) : Not normally possible

Halfling wielding Large longsword (Sized Medium) : Not normally possible

Dragon wielding Gargantuan longsword (Sized Huge) : counts as Light Weapon (- 2 penalty to Attack rolls)
Dragon wielding Colossal longsword (Sized Gargantuan) : Counts as One-Handed weapon
Dragon wielding longsword of Colossal size: Counts as Two-Handed weapon


Improvised Weapons: - 4 to Attack rolls. Weapon Size and Object Size determined by DM (possible additional penalties or requirements.) Crit 20, x 2. Range Increment: 10 feet.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Rules of Thumb on weapons:

- Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Weapon: designation of difficulty in wielding weapon.

- WEAPON Size refers to the appropriate size of the being meant to wield it.

Thus:

Medium dagger, Medium longsword, Medium greatsword, meant for Medium being (human)
Small dagger, Small longsword, Small greatsword, meant for Small being (halfling)
Large dagger, Large longsword, Large greatsword, meant for Large being (ogre)
Colossal dagger, Colossal longsword, Colossal greatsword, meant for Colossal being (dragon )

- OBJECT Size depends: Typically, weapons created to be used as Light Weapons are 2 Object Sizes smaller than the wielder, weapons created to be used as One-Handed Weapons are 1 Object Size smaller than the wielder, and weapons created to be used as Two-Handed Weapons are the same Object Size as the wielder.

Thus:

Medium dagger (Object Sized Tiny), Medium longsword (Object Sized Small), Medium greatsword (Object Sized Medium)
Small dagger (Object Sized Diminutive), Small longsword (Object Sized Tiny), Small greatsword (Object sized Small)
Large dagger (Object Sized Small), Large longsword (Object Sized Medium), Large greatsword (Object sized Large)
Colossal dagger (Object Sized Huge), Colossal longsword (Object Size Gargantuan), Colossal greatsword (Object sized Colossal)

- Inappropriate use of weapons:

Employing a weapon smaller or larger than you should be using:

- 2 per size category too small. - 2 per size category too big.

First size category too small: Two-Handed Weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced to what smaller sized weapon will deal out)
Second size category too small: Two-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced further to what much smaller weapon will deal out)
Third size category too small and beyond: - 2 per additional Size Category on Attack Rolls (damage continues to reduce with weapon size.)

First Size Category too big: Light weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Two-Handed Weapon, Two-Handed Weapon cannot be used (damage is greater due to bigger weapon)
Second Size Category too big: Light weapon becomes Two-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon cannot be used, Two-Handed Weapon cannot be used (damage for Light weapon is much greater due to much bigger weapon)

Thus:

Human could wield Large longsword Two-Handed, or Large Dagger One-Handed, - 2 Attack penalty
Human could wield Huge dagger Two-Handed, - 4 Attack penalty

Human could wield Small greatsword (counts as One-Handed Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
Human could wield Small longsword (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
Human could wield Small dagger (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty

Human could wield a Tiny Weapon (All count as Light Weapons), - 4 Attack Penalty

Did I finally get it right?

 

[Buttercup]

Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition! Leather armor was absolutely useless.)

Not at all. Every point of AC you can get makes it that much more likely you'll not be injured. Also, fighters who rely on dexterity (high dex score and the Weapon Finesse feat) don't want to use armor that negates that dexterity, so light armor is their only option.

(I came to this discussion late, so forgive me if the question has already been answered.)

Edena, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but in third edition, humans really shine. That extra feat at character creation and the extra skill points, combined with their greater flexibility in multiclassing make them by far the most desirable race in every campaign I've run or played in. By contrast, you'll rarely see a half elf anymore.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there, Buttercup. Welcome to the thread.
Thank you for coming and helping me. I need help here!

Did anyone ever tell you that trying to learn everything on page 113 of the PHB is a pain in the butt? It is!

 

[MonsterMash]

Just going to say I am really enjoying this thread and it does make me think a lot about the rules and how we use them.

My experience was a bit different, but I did come to 3.0 as something of a newcomer almost (I hadn't played D&D for something like 15 years, which is why I'm not sure I believe 2e ever happened )

The weapon size rules were changed in 3.5 from 3.0 and are a little fiddly now.

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

First size category too small: Two-Handed Weapon becomes One-Handed Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced to what smaller sized weapon will deal out)
Second size category too small: Two-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, One-Handed Weapon becomes Light Weapon, Light Weapon remains Light Weapon (damage is reduced further to what much smaller weapon will deal out)
Third size category too small and beyond: - 2 per additional Size Category on Attack Rolls (damage continues to reduce with weapon size.)

Human could wield Small greatsword (counts as One-Handed Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
Human could wield Small longsword (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty
Human could wield Small dagger (counts as Light Weapon), - 2 Attack Penalty

Human could wield a Tiny Weapon (All count as Light Weapons), - 4 Attack Penalty

Did I finally get it right?

Almost. Weapons beyond Light cannot be used, so your human can't wield a Small Dagger or any Tiny Weapon except a Two-Handed one.

All else is perfectly right!

 

[BeauNiddle]

Questions:

For Thrown Weapons (NOT thrown melee weapons) how many can you throw in a round?
For Thrown Melee Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to damage?
For Projectile Weapons, can you apply your Strength Bonus to the Attack roll?
For Composite Bows modified for Strength, can you apply your Strength Bonus to both the Attack and Damage rolls?
Can a Crossbow be built for Strength, and thus gain the bonuses of a Composite Bow?

You can throw as many thrown weapons as you have attacks in a round. (so a 16th level fighter can throw 4).

However drawing thrown weapons isn't a free action so unless you have the quickdraw feat you can only really throw 2 (one in main hand, one in offhand - transferred to main hand before throwing as a free action)

All thrown weapons apply your strength bonus
No projectile weapons apply strength except composite bows.
Composite bows only apply Str to damage - you still use Dex for to-hit.
Crossbows can't be modified

 

[BeauNiddle]

Comments (but count as questions)

Light Weapons / One-Handed Weapons / Two-Handed Weapons: Direct designation of how much effort it takes to use the weapon, for the appropriately sized being.

Light Weapons: Used one-handed. Strength Bonus to Damage Rolls with Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength Bonus with Secondary Hand. (QUESTION: What about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?) Can be used while Grappling regardless of which hand it is in. If wielded two-handed, grants only Strength Bonus to damage (no extra bonus.)
(Unarmed Attacks are considered attacks with Light Weapons.)

One-Handed Weapons: Used one-handed, may be used in either hand. Strength bonus to damage if used in Primary Hand, 1/2 Strength bonus if used in Secondary Hand, 1 1/2 x Strength Bonus if used in both hands. (QUESTION: Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

Two-Handed Weapons: Must be used in both hands. 1 1/2 x Strength bonus on hits. (QUESTION: Again, what about Strength Bonus to Attack Rolls?)

In all cases full Strength bonus is applied to to-hit. Relevant modifier applies to Damage only

e.g. Person with 18 Str

longsword in off hand = +4 to hit, +2 damage
longsword in main hand = +4 to hit, +4 damage
longsword in both hands = +4 to hit, +6 damage