D&D 3E/3.5 Complaining about 3.5 weapon size rules

[Storyteller01]

Not at all.

In 3E, a Large greatsword deals 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing damage, and has no range increment.

A Large dagger deals 2d6 19-20/x2 Piercing damage, and has a 10' range increment.

They're clearly completely different weapons.

-Hyp.

Exactly. unless said wizard can wield it one handed (as daggers usually are) then he has to treat it as a great sword. Not trained to use a Great Sword? then take the penalty.

 

[coyote6]

The 3.5e rules give consistent rules for allowing any size of combatant to use a particular weapon. I urge you to look at the different attempts at the Ogre's Bastard Sword (the Fullblade) and how clumsy they were in 3e.

3.5e fixed that by introducing a special exception; all weapons scale using one chart, except those that do 1d10 damage, and they use a different chart. That "fix" has got nothing to do with the weapon scale rules, or their changes.

3e had damage scaling rules, too, you know. They changed 'em slightly (3e: 2d6=>2d8, 3.5e: 2d6=>3d6), but they're still basically the same ("look up the damage value of your weapon on a chart, and then shift columns").

What about an ogre's greatsword? Ahh... at that point you approach the 3.5e rules.

Does your copy of the 3e rules or 3e SRD lack this section?:

Weapon Size and Damage

As a weapon gets larger or smaller, the damage it deals changes according to the following progression:

One Size Smaller	Original Damage		One Size Larger
----------------	---------------		---------------
 1			1d2				1d3
1d2			1d3				1d4
1d3			1d4				1d6
1d4			1d6				1d8
1d6			1d8				2d6
1d6			1d10				2d6
1d8			1d12				2d8

For an even larger version of a weapon that does 2 or more dice of damage, convert each die to the next larger category. For instance, a Large version of a longsword does 2d6 points of damage (up from 1d8), and a Huge version of a longsword does 2d8 points of damage (increasing each d6 to a d8).

Note how you only need three entries, while 3.5e specifies the values for Medium, Small, Large, and Tiny.

For comparison, here's the equivalent 3.5e chart:

Medium 	Small	Tiny	Large
------	-----	-----	-----
1d2	1	-	1d3
1d3	1d2	1	1d4
1d4	1d3	1d2	1d6
1d6	1d4	1d3	1d8
1d8	1d6	1d4	2d6
1d10	1d8	1d6	2d8
1d12 	1d10	1d8	3d6
2d4	1d6	1d4	2d6
2d6	1d10	1d8	3d6
2d8	?*	1d10	3d8
2d10	?*	2d6	4d8

*There aren't any Medium weapons that do this much damage in the SRD, and I'm too lazy to go looking for Complete Warrior.

 

[MerricB]

As you mentioned earlier, these would be DM answered questions.

Rubbish. They're not cultural matters, they are game mechanics questions.

Obviously, you don't know the answers.

 

[MerricB]

3.5e fixed that by introducing a special exception; all weapons scale using one chart, except those that do 1d10 damage, and they use a different chart. That "fix" has got nothing to do with the weapon scale rules, or their changes.

3e had damage scaling rules, too, you know. They changed 'em slightly (3e: 2d6=>2d8, 3.5e: 2d6=>3d6), but they're still basically the same ("look up the damage value of your weapon on a chart, and then shift columns").

Indeed. And there is one tiny bit of information left out... what proficiency do you use?

There's no problem with getting the stats for an "Ogre's Dagger" in 3e. Unfortunately, the proficiency you need to use it is left undefined.

Because a Halfling can use both human and halfling sized weapons, then we must assume that the _name_ of the weapon is the only determining factor. Oops. Wizards can use Ogre Daggers!

Cheers!

 

[Altalazar]

I'm sure it is more realistic, but it is one of those things that when I heard about it, it just gave me a headache because it seemed to make things more complicated that I didn't think were really a problem to begin with. But then I haven't played under 3.5E, so who knows how I feel about it in practice.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Exactly. unless said wizard can wield it one handed (as daggers usually are) then he has to treat it as a great sword.

Why? It isn't a greatsword. It's a dagger.

A 3E Druid wielding a greatsword violates his oath. A 3E Druid wielding a dagger doesn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Storyteller01]

Weapon Size Quiz

Sorry, but I can't site referances at the moment...

* Can a halfling wield a human-sized (Medium) Rapier? Is there any penalty for doing so? What proficiency is needed?

Yep. As a two hnded weapon. Martial rof, although I would want to k ow why a halfling would want to.

* Can a halfling wield a halfling-sized (Small) Rapier? Is there any penalty for doing so? What damage does it deal? What proficiency is needed?

A halfling may wield a small weapon one handed. since it uses the same mechanics as a Rapier, it would use the same prof (similar training). But again. WHY?? Too much of a disadvantage...

* Can a human wield a halfling-sized (Small) Rapier? Is there any penalty for doing so? What damage does it deal? What proficiency is needed?

yep, as a one handed weapon. Can't site a penalty, but i'd still have to ask why siad human would want to.

* Can a human wield a human-sized (Tiny) Dagger? What proficiency is needed?

Yep. simple weapons

* Can a human wield a halfling-sized (Diminuitive) Dagger? Are there any penalties? What damage does it do? What proficiency is needed?

Yep. Can't site penalties, but again...WHY?

* Can a human wield an ogre-sized (Medium) Dagger? Are there any penalties? What damage does it do? What proficiency is needed?

Here I agree with you on the 3.5 way of viewing things.

* Can a storm giant wield an ogre-sized (Huge) Greatsword? Penalties? Damage? Proficiency?

Can't remember the size of a Storm Giant off the top of my head, so i couldn't answer this question.

Rules references are appreciated.

Cheers!

Soryy, haven't figured out this quote thing yet.

Again, most of these can be solved by DM fiat. mechanics can and will change as new ideas are introduced to the game so, yes, culture has a lot to do with it. It's the whole reason 3.5 was made. I don't disagree with all the changes, but this one bugs me.

my question is, why add all this when everyone here is intelligent enough to figure it out on their own.

 

[Spatula]

Indeed. And there is one tiny bit of information left out... what proficiency do you use?

There's no problem with getting the stats for an "Ogre's Dagger" in 3e. Unfortunately, the proficiency you need to use it is left undefined.

So, what proficiency do you use in 3.5? Is a human wizard proficient with an ogre's dagger? Is a halfling rogue proficient with a human rapier?

 

[Storyteller01]

Why? It isn't a greatsword. It's a dagger.

A 3E Druid wielding a greatsword violates his oath. A 3E Druid wielding a dagger doesn't.

-Hyp.

Okay... getting away from exact mechanics, would you allow a wizard to use a weapon weighing ten to fifteen pounds one handed? Realistically?

Please don't site that 3.5 has solved it when 3.0 did as well. A large weapon would require a human wizard to use two hands to wield. he wasn't trained to use a two handed dagger (most humans aren't) so odds are he couldn't use this one.

this is using the a hole in the rules to gain an unreal advantage. I'm sure others have had to deal with the same nerfing in the 3.5 rules. We've exchanged one type of metagaming for another.

common sense or your GM can say what is right or wrong. If the Dm allows it, then you have no problem. If he doesn't then there still is no problem (find another weapon).

 

[MerricB]

So, what proficiency do you use in 3.5? Is a human wizard proficient with an ogre's dagger? Is a halfling rogue proficient with a human rapier?

In 3.5e, a human wizard is proficient with all daggers. However, there is a -2 penalty for each size difference; so the Human Wizard gets a -2 penalty to wield the dagger (it deals 1d6 damage).

Alternatively, by a variant rule in the 3.5e DMG, the Ogre's Dagger may be considered a Human Shortsword.

In actual fact, there are very few differences between the 3e Weapon Size rules and the 3.5e Weapon Size rules.

The actual mechanical change is to add a -2 penalty for each size difference.

The nomenclatural change is to call a dagger based on the size of the creature it is designed for, rather than it's weapon size.

So, in 3e, a dagger designed for an ogre would be a "Small Dagger", but in 3.5e it becomes a "Large Dagger", because "Large" is the size of the Ogre. I find this much easier to understand. If I mention a "Small Greatsword" in 3e, what size of creature uses it as a greatsword?

For the most part, the weapon size rules in 3.5e are used as much as the weapon size rules in 3e, which is to say: Not At All. They're used slightly more because of Halflings and Gnomes, but Halflings really benefited from the changes because (a) they got reach weapons and (b) they got Weapon Finessable weapons.

Cheers!