Complete Champion feats

[brehobit]

OK,
this is a bit of complaining about power levels of some of the complete champion feats (I got to read it today at the bookstore.) This was going to be part of a review, so it may read a bit oddly

Feats
Like many of the later 3.5 books, this one contains a number of unquestionably over-powered abilities, and most of these show up in the feats. One can argue that this is an attempt to balance out power disparities (either due to other new books, or original balance issues) or you could cynically argue that it's an attempt to sell books. But either way, some of these feats really change things.

• BATTLE BLESSING--This gives a paladin the ability to cast ALL standard action paladin spells as a swift action. As written, I think a Pious Templar could do the same thing. This certainly makes divine meta-magic look silly for a paladin...
  
  
• IMBUED HEALING--Whenever you heal someone, they get some other bonus for 1 minute/level of the healing spell. The exact bonuses depend on the cleric's domain, but some bonuses include: DR 3/evil, 1 temp hit point per level or HD (of target I think), and last upto an hour, and a +2 damage bonus with melee attacks. These "bonus" abilities are more powerful than 1st, or even 3rd level spells and they are a bonus "side effect". It is a meta-magic feat, so if you want to spontaneously heal someone, you need a full round to include this bonus. Eh...
  
  
• HOLY WARRIOR--Gain a +X bonus to all weapon damage rolls equal to the highest level war domain spell you haven't cast. This puts weapon specialization to shame. Need to be able to cast 4th level war domain spells. At the very least this should be limited to your God's weapon and it probably should be level/2 or some such also.

 

[Kraydak]

OK,
this is a bit of complaining about power levels of some of the complete champion feats (I got to read it today at the bookstore.) This was going to be part of a review, so it may read a bit oddly

Feats
Like many of the later 3.5 books, this one contains a number of unquestionably over-powered abilities, and most of these show up in the feats. One can argue that this is an attempt to balance out power disparities (either due to other new books, or original balance issues) or you could cynically argue that it's an attempt to sell books. But either way, some of these feats really change things.

Or perhaps your power estimates are off a tad.

• BATTLE BLESSING--This gives a paladin the ability to cast ALL standard action paladin spells as a swift action. As written, I think a Pious Templar could do the same thing. This certainly makes divine meta-magic look silly for a paladin...

• 
  Time, measured in actions, is the most valuable resource out there. Paladin spells, being so weak, aren't worth spending an action on. This feats makes the Paladin's spell list... relevant.
  

  [*]IMBUED HEALING--Whenever you heal someone, they get some other bonus for 1 minute/level of the healing spell. The exact bonuses depend on the cleric's domain, but some bonuses include: DR 3/evil, 1 temp hit point per level or HD (of target I think), and last upto an hour, and a +2 damage bonus with melee attacks. These "bonus" abilities are more powerful than 1st, or even 3rd level spells and they are a bonus "side effect". It is a meta-magic feat, so if you want to spontaneously heal someone, you need a full round to include this bonus. Eh...

  Not having the book in front of me, I forget the full list of restrictions on this feat. The buffs are pretty minor though. No one is going to burn an action to only to give someone one in combat, and they don't last long enough for real pre-buffing.
  

  [*]HOLY WARRIOR--Gain a +X bonus to all weapon damage rolls equal to the highest level war domain spell you haven't cast. This puts weapon specialization to shame. Need to be able to cast 4th level war domain spells. At the very least this should be limited to your God's weapon and it probably should be level/2 or some such also.

To begin with, Weapon Spec is a weak feat. Even when restricted to Core, you should try your hardest never, ever to take it. Secondly, if you are taking this feat, either your BaB is going to be poor or your max spell level is going to be poor (skillful multi-classing and prestige classing aside, note that the divine/melee hybrid has much less support than the arcane/melee hybrid). That makes this feat... catchup. Add in the general weakness of the War Domain and you get a very reasonable feat.

Complete Champion does have some issues (some of the affiliations are... absurd, Knowledge Devotion is sweet and if I remember right, Ordained Champion can be twisted rather fiercely, although not anywhere near the RKV) but the above feats... meh.

 

[brehobit]

Or perhaps your power estimates are off a tad.

Quite possible.

Time, measured in actions, is the most valuable resource out there. Paladin spells, being so weak, aren't worth spending an action on. This feats makes the Paladin's spell list... relevant.

I've not played a paladin in 3.5, but I have played a Pious Templar and I used the spells a lot (other than swift bless weapon, mostly out of combat)

With this feat, and given a few pearls of power a paladin can cast bless in every combat as a swift action. That's pretty nice (and a LOT harder for a cleric) Also, bless weapon will be cast in every fight. Not to mention resist energy and heal mount, both extremely powerful as swift spells.

Not having the book in front of me, I forget the full list of restrictions on this feat. The buffs are pretty minor though. No one is going to burn an action to only to give someone one in combat, and they don't last long enough for real pre-buffing.

1 minute per spell level is certainly long enough. And DR 3/evil is a NICE buff, especially at lower levels. Finally, IME, healing spells do get cast in combat all the time. This really makes them quite nice.

A mass cure-light wounds that grants DR 3/evil for 5 minutes to all legal targets is a darn handy spell.

To begin with, Weapon Spec is a weak feat. Even when restricted to Core, you should try your hardest never, ever to take it. Secondly, if you are taking this feat, either your BaB is going to be poor or your max spell level is going to be poor (skillful multi-classing and prestige classing aside, note that the divine/melee hybrid has much less support than the arcane/melee hybrid). That makes this feat... catchup. Add in the general weakness of the War Domain and you get a very reasonable feat.

Humm, I've never seen the war domain as weak, nor weapon specialization as weak especially in a core-only game. I've not seen a fighter over level 6 who doesn't have it. +2 damage is nice when your bread-and-butter is doing damage. And +1 attack (from the war domain) is also really nice. +4 damage as a 7th level caster is more than catch-up, especially if you are playing a PrC that gives cleric advancement and full BAB (Ruby Knight Vindicator comes to mind)

 

[Darklone]

Weapon Spec is great for archers and great for point buy 25 or 28 games. For point buy 32, it should already be a +4 to weapon damage.

Battle Blessing should rather be a normal paladin ability, that class has hardly any feats at all. I think it's an improvement but not at all overpowered.

 

[Carpe DM]

I make no claims as to power, but I've been playing a clutch healer (cloistered cleric / radiant servant) for 8 levels now, and imbued healing is amazing, if you take the healing school version. The effect is +1 temp hitpoint per target HD, for an hour. With no level increase. And, as a metamagic feat, it's a prereq to Twin Spell, which is what I use (with Divine Metamagic) to cast the big heals.

Here's why it's good: it's based on target hit-dice, so the extra hitpoints are independent of the level of the spell. For example, twinned imbued close wounds is the "oh no you didn't kill him, either" spell of the day. Yes, it takes 5 turn attempts, but a 30-point (2.5+5+8)*2 swift heal is pretty fantastic.

Some variations. I have Initiate of Ilmater, so I can hit party members with a cure light wounds *before* combat, and have it heal the regular amount, PLUS the temporary hitpoint amount, above the PC's ordinary hitpoints. It turns a first-level heal into a 20 point pre-fight buff that also carries a +2 to fort saves (due to the Favored of Ilmater). Our wizard loves this.

 

[brehobit]

Some variations. I have Initiate of Ilmater, so I can hit party members with a cure light wounds *before* combat, and have it heal the regular amount, PLUS the temporary hitpoint amount, above the PC's ordinary hitpoints. It turns a first-level heal into a 20 point pre-fight buff that also carries a +2 to fort saves (due to the Favored of Ilmater). Our wizard loves this.

Try it with "stabilize" some time. As a pre-combat buff it's pretty powerful as a 2nd level spell. In a fight with undead it's also very handy (they don't get the bonus). Not bad, a swift spell that's as good as mass-aid in many situations.

Mark

 

[Nifft]

Weapon Spec is too weak, and Holy Warrior is too strong. IMHO it is far too strong.

Given all the goodies you already get as an archer cleric, do they really need +9 damage? No. No they do not.

The Paladin feat (Battle Blessing) looks fine. Who cares, Paladins don't use their spells in combat much anyway.

Imbued Healing... I dunno. It does look strong, but it also makes healing slightly cool, so it might be a good thing. I dunno.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Darklone]

...Holy Warrior is too strong. IMHO it is far too strong.

Seconded.

The Paladin feat (Battle Blessing) looks fine. Who cares, Paladins don't use their spells in combat much anyway.

Now they do

With Battle Blessing and Practised Spellcaster, Swift Divine Favors all the time and your sword and board paladin rivals the barbarians Damage output (ok, you still need Divine Might too)!

 

[Diirk]

I didn't take Battle Blessing with my Paladin, with the release of the Spell Compendium they get a good selection of good spells that are already swift casting time. With the very limited feat selection Paladin's get, it just didn't seem worth it.

Holy Warrior is very powerful. With a cleric/ordained champion, or a paladin/pious templar/divine crusader you can get 9th level war spells with a high BAB.

Imbued Healing... meh. I thought if it healed multiple targets you could only apply the bonus to one person, too? Not at my book at the moment, maybe that was a similar feat

 

[Nifft]

Imbued Healing... meh. I thought if it healed multiple targets you could only apply the bonus to one person, too? Not at my book at the moment, maybe that was a similar feat

Nope. The only restriction is that you must apply the same bonus effect to all targets.

Cheers, -- N