Complete Psioinc...now we've had time...

[resistor]

I'm curious as to how people justify the existance of the Divine Mind. The book itself seems to give very little in the way of justification for what a Divine Mind actually is.

IMC, and I thought in psionics in general, psionics is born of the internal power of a sentient mind. I don't see how a person who somehow channels divine power through psionic talent fits into that.

Are they stealing divine power? Are they people who are both faithful and psionically gifted? If the latter, why isn't this just a psion/cleric PrC like the cerebromancer?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Divine Minds could be justified a few different ways.

They could be "Psionic Paladins/Clerics" who are gifted with psionic energy by divine beings.

They could be a kind of psion who believe in the divine and that they are merely channels for power...like a positive, psionically gifted hypochondriac.

 

[resistor]

They could be "Psionic Paladins/Clerics" who are gifted with psionic energy by divine beings.

But then it wouldn't be psionic... it'd be divine energy, since it's coming from a divine source rather than from within. I don't see how that's any different than a normal cleric/paladin...

They could be a kind of psion who believe in the divine and that they are merely channels for power...like a positive, psionically gifted hypochondriac.

Could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They could be "Psionic Paladins/Clerics" who are gifted with psionic energy by divine beings.

But then it wouldn't be psionic... it'd be divine energy, since it's coming from a divine source rather than from within. I don't see how that's any different than a normal cleric/paladin...

No, its still psionic energy.

If a god gives you the ability to cast arcane spells, that's arcane energy from a divine source. Similarly, if a god gives you psionic powers, that's psionic energy from a divine source.

They could be a kind of psion who believe in the divine and that they are merely channels for power...like a positive, psionically gifted hypochondriac.

Could you rephrase that? I don't understand what you mean.

A hypochondriac can be so convinced of their illness that they can manifest symptoms, despite not being ill.

Or to put it a different way, look at the ability of certain real world eastern monks to withstand extreme temperatures or dangerous blows by their deep understanding of the human mind and body- an understanding derived from centuries of exploration of meditative techniques encoded into their religious doctrines.

What I'm suggesting is that Divine Minds could be a kind of psionically active being whose religious beliefs are such that they believe their powers spring from a divine fount- not unlike a Cleric who follows a philosophy instead of a god- and this belief shapes the way they use psychic energy.

 

[Aaron L]

I'm curious as to how people justify the existance of the Divine Mind. The book itself seems to give very little in the way of justification for what a Divine Mind actually is.

IMC, and I thought in psionics in general, psionics is born of the internal power of a sentient mind. I don't see how a person who somehow channels divine power through psionic talent fits into that.

Are they stealing divine power? Are they people who are both faithful and psionically gifted? If the latter, why isn't this just a psion/cleric PrC like the cerebromancer?

Thats the problem sone of us have with the Divine Mind. The Ardent is good, the DM, not so much. From what I gather, Cordell originally submitted the Ardent and DM as a single class with the Ardents descrikption and combined mechanics, and somewhere in development it got seperated into two classes, one with less than stellar background material.

 

[resistor]

If a god gives you the ability to cast arcane spells, that's arcane energy from a divine source. Similarly, if a god gives you psionic powers, that's psionic energy from a divine source.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see how a god can give you the ability to cast arcane spells either.

Or to put it a different way, look at the ability of certain real world eastern monks to withstand extreme temperatures or dangerous blows by their deep understanding of the human mind and body- an understanding derived from centuries of exploration of meditative techniques encoded into their religious doctrines.

What I'm suggesting is that Divine Minds could be a kind of psionically active being whose religious beliefs are such that they believe their powers spring from a divine fount- not unlike a Cleric who follows a philosophy instead of a god- and this belief shapes the way they use psychic energy.

That is the most interesting explanation of it I've heard. Not totally convinced, but I can at least kind of see it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't see how a god can give you the ability to cast arcane spells either.

1) They can cast arcane spells themselves.

2) They can give out abilities that are arguably more powerful than arcane spellcasting, so why not?

3) Consider Forgotten Realms: Spellfire sources from that campaign's deity of magic, and it allows several arcane-spell type effects (though AFAIK, its not considered either arcane or divine)...and its just a feat.

 

[resistor]

Because it violates the entire point of having separate arcane/divine/psionic magic in the first place.

Divine magic is power from the gods. Psionic power is power from within one's mind. Arcane power is power taken from elsewhere in the universe.

A god might grant a spell that is normally an arcane spell, but when a cleric casts it, it's still divine because it's given out by a god. When a god casts a spell, it should be a divine spell, unless they have arcane knowledge independent of their godly powers.

At any rate, that's enough for this threadjacking. Like I said, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Aaron L]

1) They can cast arcane spells themselves.

2) They can give out abilities that are arguably more powerful than arcane spellcasting, so why not?

3) Consider Forgotten Realms: Spellfire sources from that campaign's deity of magic, and it allows several arcane-spell type effects (though AFAIK, its not considered either arcane or divine)...and its just a feat.

Actually, spellfire is the ability to tap and manipulate raw magical energy without use of actual spellcasting through the Weave, and doesnt have anything to do with Mystra. In fact, it totally bypasses her.

But thats not the point of the thread, sorry


Now, as for point 2, once a power is granted by a god, it is divine magic, by definition. An effect is an effect, teleportation is travel through the astral plane, for example, but when it is granted by a god, its divine magic, when its learned from a book through intense study and manipulation of external energies its arcane magic, and when its achieved by focusing ones inner energies, its psionics.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A god might grant a spell that is normally an arcane spell, but when a cleric casts it, it's still divine because it's given out by a god. When a god casts a spell, it should be a divine spell, unless they have arcane knowledge independent of their godly powers.

I dare say that if Boccob granted a Barbarian the ability to cast Magic Missile as a Wizard of equivalent level, it would be cast as an arcane spell.