Complete Series

[Staffan]

Second, the orb spells. How are the orb spells really different from Acid Arrow? With metamagicing, you could basically replicate almost all of the orb spells with acid arrow. All the orb spells do are expand on an already accepted and balanced spell from the core books. People talk about them as if they are broken, but once you see them in play I've never heard anyone actually complain about them as being over powered (much like a lot of people did with the Warlock before seeing them in play).

The orbs are quite different from acid arrow. Acid arrows deals a pretty small amount of damage, but does it over multiple rounds. The Orbs deal a lot of damage, all at once. Plus, it makes no sense that a conjuration spell would be able do deal sonic, electricity, force, or cold damage. Acid makes perfect sense (but should do more acid arrow-like damage - spreading things out over multiple rounds), and fire could work (basically creating alchemist's fire), but other energy types should only be indirectly accessible (e.g. by summoning something that uses it as an attack type).

If I had written the Orb spells, I'd probably have made them do d8 per level (damage spells are underpowered, and I think a 4th-level single-target spell should do more damage than a 3rd-level area spell), be evocation spells, and had SR affect them.

 

[havoclad]

The spell 'Doomtide' in Complete Divine seems overpowered to me.

4th level Illusion
80x10 area of effect, all within save or dazed for 1r/level. It also conceals them.
Compare to Hold Monster (not even granted to clerics, but ..)

 

[Merlion]

First, Domain Spontanity takes NOTHING away from the Wizard. Did you not notice that wizards don't cast spontaneously? Did you notice their spell lists are almost completely different? Did you notice it takes a turn attempt to convert the spell? Did you notice it only allows spells from their domain (hence one a level)? It's not even a particularly good feat. It hasn't found it's way into ANY of the "broken" builds on the WOTC optimization board. If it really had big utility, you would see it CONSTANTLY. It's not broken, in the least.

Yea, it is...because it allows Clerics to narrow the gap between their spells and a Wizards way more than they should be able to.

The Cleric is already overpowered. The Cleric already has a spell list that is just as good as (but different than) the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Theres only a few things, magically, that a Wizard can do that a Cleric cant. Teleportation for instance. But Domains begin to erode that. And Domain Spontaneity, even with its limitations, erodes it a lot more...far more than anything should.

Second, the orb spells. How are the orb spells really different from Acid Arrow?

How are they remotely like it?

Acid Arrow is a 2nd level low-damage over time spell, that is a Conjuration (and should be since it creates substance).

The Orbs are 4th level high-damage direct damage spells that are listed as Conjurations, but that create cold, electricity, fire, force, sound...all areas mainly of Evocation, and in a form (high direct immediate damage) that is generally supposed to be the province of Evocation.


Same for Arc of Lightning and that flame one.

And several spells in some of the terrain type books.


Like I said, they need to either quite creating Evocations and labeling them Conjurations, or the school of Evocation just needs to be removed, since if it continues it will be utterlly redundant.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

The main thing that jumps out as completely unfair is the Radiant Servant of Pelor. The only thing you give up as a cleric when doing a prestige class is turning, and the RSoP is better at turning than a straight up cleric. So effectively you give up nothing. I guess this is balanced by the fact that you HAVE to pick Pelor...but for a min/maxer who would care.

I don't see how the hulking hurler is broken or easily abused. You have to be a size large or larger creature to use it and thats not going to happen if you use the normal classes in the game.

DS

 

[Merlion]

The main thing that jumps out as completely unfair is the Radiant Servant of Pelor. The only thing you give up as a cleric when doing a prestige class is turning, and the RSoP is better at turning than a straight up cleric. So effectively you give up nothing. I guess this is balanced by the fact that you HAVE to pick Pelor...but for a min/maxer who would care.

Yea, it is pretty bad. But I'm surprised thats all that jumped out at you. Of the lot of them, Complete Divine definitely has the most issues. Not surprising I guess since even a core-only Cleric is considerably overpowered.

But almost everything in that book makes it worse. That prestige class, Divine Metamagic, Domain Spontaneity...

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Yea, it is pretty bad. But I'm surprised thats all that jumped out at you. Of the lot of them, Complete Divine definitely has the most issues. Not surprising I guess since even a core-only Cleric is considerably overpowered.

But almost everything in that book makes it worse. That prestige class, Divine Metamagic, Domain Spontaneity...

I play with a good group. We don't have to worry about people being stupid with loopholes to break the game. You can already buy magic items that let you get free metamagic in the DMG so I never thought it was all that bad. Of course my group NEVER takes metamagic feats because of the severe penalties. Anything to make them useable I am in favor of.

DS

 

[Saeviomagy]

The main thing that jumps out as completely unfair is the Radiant Servant of Pelor. The only thing you give up as a cleric when doing a prestige class is turning, and the RSoP is better at turning than a straight up cleric. So effectively you give up nothing. I guess this is balanced by the fact that you HAVE to pick Pelor...but for a min/maxer who would care.

I don't see how the hulking hurler is broken or easily abused. You have to be a size large or larger creature to use it and thats not going to happen if you use the normal classes in the game.

Permanent enlarge person is core.

 

[Merlion]

I play with a good group. We don't have to worry about people being stupid with loopholes to break the game. You can already buy magic items that let you get free metamagic in the DMG so I never thought it was all that bad. Of course my group NEVER takes metamagic feats because of the severe penalties. Anything to make them useable I am in favor of.

DS

Its not about loopholes. The Cleric class is already overpowered, just within core. And feats like Divine Metamagic are, simply, overpowered. Loopholes dont enter into it.


And yea, standard core D&D metamagic isnt everything its cracked up to be. But Divine Metamagic doesnt make metamagic more useable...it allows the Cleric, and only the Cleric to abuse it.


If you want to make Metamagic better for everyone, use one of the Spontaneous Metamagic variants in Unearthed Arcana.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've yet to be in a game with one, so I don't know for certain, but the Bear Warrior from CW has always made me feel uneasy. By tenth PrC level, they get something like +20 strength in bear form. Granted, that's very high level, but it's +16 at the mid levels of the class! Just thinking of how strong an orc barb / bear warrior with maxed out str, +6 str magic item etc... could be... Initial 22 + 6 (guantlets) + 4 level advancement (or +5, if he's not a complete min/maxer), +20 from the bear form a few times per day. Assuming he doesn't buy a tome to up his strength more or anything, that's a 52, for a bonus of +21, which is +31 damage to his two-handed attacks. And with a to-hit that ridiculous, why not add in some power attack, too?

 

[Shin Okada]

I tend to agree with most of the others.

Hulking Hurler + improvised weapon table is a insane combination. Just don't use that weight/damage table and treat improvised weapons as clubs of appropriate size category. Then the class will be fine.

And Divine Metamagic is really bad. Especially when combined with Persistent Spell. The problem is, the DIvine Metamagic does not require higher level spell slot. So, a cleric can make a spell of 3rd-level or higher without hitting epic level. Designers who made Divine Power spell or Persistent Spell feat were not counting on the existence of Divine Metamagic feat.

I think Radiant Servant of Pelor is OK. It indeed has smaller HD than cleric. And it needs Sun and Healing domains to use class abilities. Both of those domains are not the most popular ones.

I have no problem on Orb spells at all.