D&D 5E Comprehend Languages Saves Lives

[iserith]

I'm running a classic dungeon crawl for two separate groups in separate games right now. It's fun to see how each group overcomes the same challenges. They're all 3rd level.

The first group TPKed on Thursday night. In the upper dungeon, they encountered a kobold guard post similar to one they had encountered in a previous session which proved to be a bit difficult for them given their current resources at the time. Refreshed after a long rest and having some sense of how the kobold guards might react to their attack, they struck again. Due in part to the clever tactics the players employed, this time the kobolds started to fall back, disengaging, dashing, moving, led by kobold dragonshields who were barking orders in Draconic to other kobolds who ran off to places unknown.

The PCs pursued, pushing deeper and deeper into kobold territory. What they didn't know was the kobolds that ran off were rallying another such guard post who began to move around the rear of the PCs to prepare a pincer attack. By the time the PCs realized what was going on, they were in a narrow corridor and surrounded on both sides. Shortly thereafter, they were massacred.

The Friday night group hadn't delved into the upper dungeon in the previous session, exploring only the surface ruins so far. At some point while the rest of the party was looking for secret doors, looting, and whatnot, the wizard decides to cast comprehend languages as a ritual. I'm not sure if he had a plan or was just doing it because he had 10 minutes to spare while the others went about their business. But when they went into the upper dungeon and encountered the kobold guard post, the wizard was able to understand what the dragonshields were saying about signaling the other guard post to begin the pincer maneuver.

Knowing that their position was now extremely precarious, these PCs broke away from the engagement and retreated, avoiding the pincer attack altogether. They left the ruins and waited for a bit before returning to tackle the upper dungeon from another direction. Without comprehend languages, they might well have met the same fate as the Thursday night group!

Have you seen the humble comprehend languages spell turn out to be very useful or lifesaving in your games?

 

[Mad_Jack]

Not recently.
But, I've always played CL as just being a universal translator sort of thing that let you both speak and read any type of language that you were exposed to.
So I used to have one player a long time ago who'd sometimes use it to bluff opponents by shouting fake commands to the rest of the party in the opponents' language.

 

[Lanefan]

I'm running a classic dungeon crawl for two separate groups in separate games right now. It's fun to see how each group overcomes the same challenges. They're all 3rd level.

The first group TPKed on Thursday night. In the upper dungeon, they encountered a kobold guard post similar to one they had encountered in a previous session which proved to be a bit difficult for them given their current resources at the time. Refreshed after a long rest and having some sense of how the kobold guards might react to their attack, they struck again. Due in part to the clever tactics the players employed, this time the kobolds started to fall back, disengaging, dashing, moving, led by kobold dragonshields who were barking orders in Draconic to other kobolds who ran off to places unknown.

The PCs pursued, pushing deeper and deeper into kobold territory. What they didn't know was the kobolds that ran off were rallying another such guard post who began to move around the rear of the PCs to prepare a pincer attack. By the time the PCs realized what was going on, they were in a narrow corridor and surrounded on both sides. Shortly thereafter, they were massacred.

The Friday night group hadn't delved into the upper dungeon in the previous session, exploring only the surface ruins so far. At some point while the rest of the party was looking for secret doors, looting, and whatnot, the wizard decides to cast comprehend languages as a ritual. I'm not sure if he had a plan or was just doing it because he had 10 minutes to spare while the others went about their business. But when they went into the upper dungeon and encountered the kobold guard post, the wizard was able to understand what the dragonshields were saying about signaling the other guard post to begin the pincer maneuver.

Knowing that their position was now extremely precarious, these PCs broke away from the engagement and retreated, avoiding the pincer attack altogether. They left the ruins and waited for a bit before returning to tackle the upper dungeon from another direction. Without comprehend languages, they might well have met the same fate as the Thursday night group!

Have you seen the humble comprehend languages spell turn out to be very useful or lifesaving in your games?

Useful, yes; though as the version I'm used to has a single target (a creature or object) and a range of "touch" the scenario you describe here could never happen.

It seems from your write-up that the "humble" CL in 5e has somehow become better than Tongues was in 1e: even as a 3rd or 4th level spell (depending on caster) Tongues only had a range of 10 feet.

Most of the time in my game CL is used either for deciphering writing they can't otherwise read or for talking to a captive or prisoner or rescuee.

 

[iserith]

Useful, yes; though as the version I'm used to has a single target (a creature or object) and a range of "touch" the scenario you describe here could never happen.

It seems from your write-up that the "humble" CL in 5e has somehow become better than Tongues was in 1e: even as a 3rd or 4th level spell (depending on caster) Tongues only had a range of 10 feet.

Most of the time in my game CL is used either for deciphering writing they can't otherwise read or for talking to a captive or prisoner or rescuee.

In D&D 5e, comprehend languages lets you understand any language you hear or see, but you cannot speak it. Tongues allows you to understand any spoken language and for creatures that speak at least one language to understand you. Each spell lasts for 1 hour. Comprehend languages can be cast as a ritual; tongues can't be cast as a ritual and is a 3rd-level spell.

 

[Lanefan]

In D&D 5e, comprehend languages lets you understand any language you hear or see, but you cannot speak it. Tongues allows you to understand any spoken language and for creatures that speak at least one language to understand you. Each spell lasts for 1 hour. Comprehend languages can be cast as a ritual; tongues can't be cast as a ritual and is a 3rd-level spell.

So, for two spell levels you get the ability with Tongues to talk back but not read anything; and you can cast CL for free. Yeah, I'd say CL has become just a bit overpowered for a 1st-level spell.

Given that Tongues is 3rd-level I'd probably make this version of CL 4th level, give it the talk-back function, and drop Tongues as a spell.

 

[iserith]

So, for two spell levels you get the ability with Tongues to talk back but not read anything; and you can cast CL for free. Yeah, I'd say CL has become just a bit overpowered for a 1st-level spell.

Given that Tongues is 3rd-level I'd probably make this version of CL 4th level, give it the talk-back function, and drop Tongues as a spell.

Overpowered relative to what? A version of the game irrelevant to the current version?

 

[Cruentus]

I wish things like Comprehend Languages and similar "non-combat" spells were used more in our 5e games. Most often in 5e, everyone has so many languages available to them via race, etc., that they're often saying "well, I'll just take language x for the heck of it". And in a party of 4 or 5, every major language is usually covered. That level of worldbuilding and interaction I've found to be locally lacking.

Related, but I'm running my son through Castle Caldwell using OSE, and he only knows his language and is literate in it. He came upon some kobolds, but didn't act aggressively, showed his hands, and tried to communicate with them. I rolled their reaction and they were neutral toward him. He then gave them a wineskin as he edged past them. No actual verbal communication, but attempts as non-verbal communication, not murder-hoboing, and offering food and such to creatures he encounters has been working well for him.

In 5e, I've only seen those non-combat spells used as rituals where they don't use a resource, or when there is literally nothing else for the wizard to be doing.

 

[iserith]

I wish things like Comprehend Languages and similar "non-combat" spells were used more in our 5e games. Most often in 5e, everyone has so many languages available to them via race, etc., that they're often saying "well, I'll just take language x for the heck of it". And in a party of 4 or 5, every major language is usually covered. That level of worldbuilding and interaction I've found to be locally lacking.

One easy fix is to limit characters to standard languages only (PHB p. 123) unless they pick up new languages via a feat or through downtime training. Then strike Common off all monster stat blocks except for certain ones (like the more learned or worldly among those particular monsters or perhaps leaders). That immediately makes languages more important but also harder to obtain, which has the further side effect of increasing the value of comprehend languages and tongues.

 

[Lanefan]

Overpowered relative to what? A version of the game irrelevant to the current version?

Overpowered relative to Tongues, the same-family 3rd-level spell that is arguably less useful in most situations. (also OP relative to what IMO a 1st-level character should be able to do in general, but that's a whole other discussion)

 

[Lanefan]

I wish things like Comprehend Languages and similar "non-combat" spells were used more in our 5e games. Most often in 5e, everyone has so many languages available to them via race, etc., that they're often saying "well, I'll just take language x for the heck of it". And in a party of 4 or 5, every major language is usually covered. That level of worldbuilding and interaction I've found to be locally lacking.

On average, how many languages do each of your PCs have available?

And do you rule that the first one has to be the character's native tongue, i.e. the one spoken in its family?

I ask because in my game characters have on average maybe 3-5 languages, and even then there's situations where some combinations of characters in the party can't speak to each other without a translator.

Another question: how many different languages and dialects does your setting have? If there's a few hundred, even if a party can put together 20 languages between them that still leaves an awful lot they can't understand...

Related, but I'm running my son through Castle Caldwell using OSE, and he only knows his language and is literate in it. He came upon some kobolds, but didn't act aggressively, showed his hands, and tried to communicate with them. I rolled their reaction and they were neutral toward him. He then gave them a wineskin as he edged past them. No actual verbal communication, but attempts as non-verbal communication, not murder-hoboing, and offering food and such to creatures he encounters has been working well for him.

Very cool. Well played to him!

 

[Tutara]

Have you seen the humble comprehend languages spell turn out to be very useful or lifesaving in your games?

Comprehend Languages is one of my 'always takes' as a player, and sees a lot of play at the tables I play at. Suddenly a combat encounter can be a social encounter, or an ancient unknowable text can be deciphered (and I love the visual of having the caster have to touch the text as they read it).

It's not strictly Comprehend Languages, but a good language moment was when a druid player I had, who was hunting down an elusive cell of spies, tried to use Speak to Animals to ask an innocuous rat if it had seen any sneaky looking humans pass by, and was surprised that she couldn't understand its squeaks. This tipped her off that it was a were-rat in disguise who was just making squeaking noises, rather than a real rat. It then dawned on the party just how many of the other 'rats' were watching them very carefully from the shadows...

 

[Clint_L]

5e has an awful lot of ways for characters to communicate across language barriers, starting at very low levels. I think it's gotten out of hand - why not just have everything speak Common if it is going to be so easy to get past language challenges? I suppose it comes down to DM preference, but I would prefer it dialled back a bit.

 

[guachi]

I am a linguist by trade (US Navy Arabic linguist). You will never, ever hear me gainsay the elite status of good translation - whether that's in real life or a fantasy game.

ALL HAIL Comprehend Languages!!

 

[Fanaelialae]

Comprehend Languages is generally one of my go-to spells, particularly if my character is high enough level to consider their 1st level slots to be for utility. I can't recall any specific instances atm, but I know it has been useful many, many times.

That said, I disagree with those who think CL removes the value of Tongues. That's another mainstay of mine. CL is a great spell, but the communication only works in one direction. For the caster to communicate with the target, you're reduced to pantomiming or drawing pictures, which in many circumstances is less than optimal. Tongues allows for effortless two-way communication, making it a valuable tool, whether or not the party already has access to CL.

However, the value of these spells is somewhat DM dependent.

I've played with DMs who, if they want you to speak with a creature, will make sure that creature has a means of communicating with the party. And if they don't, then CL or Tongues is basically useless because the creature will most likely refuse to communicate (just mindlessly attack, or whatever). With a DM like this, these spells are all but useless.

My usual DM, on the other hand, regularly populates his campaign worlds with creatures and texts that are in an array of languages. Oftentimes, being able to speak with a creature or read something means the difference between having to face deadly danger, or being able to circumvent it. In his campaigns, these spells are invaluable.

 

[Cruentus]

On average, how many languages do each of your PCs have available?

And do you rule that the first one has to be the character's native tongue, i.e. the one spoken in its family?

I ask because in my game characters have on average maybe 3-5 languages, and even then there's situations where some combinations of characters in the party can't speak to each other without a translator.

Another question: how many different languages and dialects does your setting have? If there's a few hundred, even if a party can put together 20 languages between them that still leaves an awful lot they can't understand...

Very cool. Well played to him!

Each of our characters has the same 3-5 as yours does, with "common" and their native tongue as the first two. For the Int spellcasters, while not optimal, Linguist bumps Int and give 3 languages just like that (no one ever accused me of being an optimiser). The party can always speak to each other due to Common, and with like 95% of the rest of the world, unless the DM decides the enemy doesn't speak common. And with 4-6 players, that's 6-24 languages on the high to low end (not including common and native languages) - my DM's don't really give that much thought to languages and their use (or non-use) in our games. Its just never been a lever that they have used.

My campaign currently in Greyhawk that I am running has no "Common" language, 4 human languages total so far (we're currently in Furyondy (party 1 - Velondi is the main language - though the main character here is from Veluna, and so could have spoken Velondi or Oeridian) and Sterich (party 2 - speaks Keolandish), 5 non-human languages (elf, halfling, gnome, sylvan, dwarvish, not readily available to learn unless those people live in and around your community), and 3 humanoid (orc, giant, goblin, even harder to learn). You gain your native language at creation, and can learn additional languages based on your Int score (we're playing OSE). It is no guarantee that, for example, that the Oeridian speaker from Veluna could communicate effectively with the Velondi speaker from Furyondy. Fortunately for him, he chose Velondi, as its the more common language in Veluna and Furyondy (in my world).

 

[iserith]

That said, I disagree with those who think CL removes the value of Tongues. That's another mainstay of mine. CL is a great spell, but the communication only works in one direction. For the caster to communicate with the target, you're reduced to pantomiming or drawing pictures, which in many circumstances is less than optimal. Tongues allows for effortless two-way communication, making it a valuable tool, whether or not the party already has access to CL.

Right. One can imagine that a social interaction challenge works normally when the creatures can speak each other's language. But if one or both sides can't effectively communicate with the other, any Wisdom (Insight) or Charisma checks can be at disadvantage, or attempts to read, deceive, intimidate, or persuade automatically fail.

 

[Clint_L]

That said, I disagree with those who think CL removes the value of Tongues. That's another mainstay of mine. CL is a great spell, but the communication only works in one direction. For the caster to communicate with the target, you're reduced to pantomiming or drawing pictures, which in many circumstances is less than optimal.

True...but also super optimal for hilarious times at the gaming table as the players try to pantomime "we don't want to hurt you, we just need to get into the tunnel behind you in order to retrieve a rare fungus to treat our barbarian's condition."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Overpowered relative to Tongues, the same-family 3rd-level spell that is arguably less useful in most situations. (also OP relative to what IMO a 1st-level character should be able to do in general, but that's a whole other discussion)

Frequency of usefulness isn't the metric; it's the power of what you can do with it. In my mind being able to communicate in a language, and potentially influence others, is vastly more potent than merely understanding it.

But I could see moving Tongues to 2nd level.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Comprehend Languages is generally one of my go-to spells, particularly if my character is high enough level to consider their 1st level slots to be for utility. I can't recall any specific instances atm, but I know it has been useful many, many times.

That said, I disagree with those who think CL removes the value of Tongues. That's another mainstay of mine. CL is a great spell, but the communication only works in one direction. For the caster to communicate with the target, you're reduced to pantomiming or drawing pictures, which in many circumstances is less than optimal. Tongues allows for effortless two-way communication, making it a valuable tool, whether or not the party already has access to CL.

Right. And if what you are trying to do is influence the other party, maybe even by using other magic, pantomiming is not going to cut it.

 

[Lanefan]

Each of our characters has the same 3-5 as yours does, with "common" and their native tongue as the first two. For the Int spellcasters, while not optimal, Linguist bumps Int and give 3 languages just like that (no one ever accused me of being an optimiser).

Ah. I don't require that they all know Common; and some choose not to (or just roll all their non-native languages randomly and don't hit Common).

The party can always speak to each other due to Common, and with like 95% of the rest of the world, unless the DM decides the enemy doesn't speak common. And with 4-6 players, that's 6-24 languages on the high to low end (not including common and native languages) - my DM's don't really give that much thought to languages and their use (or non-use) in our games. Its just never been a lever that they have used.

Languages have always been important here.

My campaign currently in Greyhawk that I am running has no "Common" language, 4 human languages total so far (we're currently in Furyondy (party 1 - Velondi is the main language - though the main character here is from Veluna, and so could have spoken Velondi or Oeridian) and Sterich (party 2 - speaks Keolandish), 5 non-human languages (elf, halfling, gnome, sylvan, dwarvish, not readily available to learn unless those people live in and around your community), and 3 humanoid (orc, giant, goblin, even harder to learn). You gain your native language at creation, and can learn additional languages based on your Int score (we're playing OSE). It is no guarantee that, for example, that the Oeridian speaker from Veluna could communicate effectively with the Velondi speaker from Furyondy. Fortunately for him, he chose Velondi, as its the more common language in Veluna and Furyondy (in my world).

So by that it seems you have 12 languages in your setting. Yeah, covering all those would be pretty easy for a typical party.

I've never counted them all...so now I will. There's 120 named languages or dialects in my setting, plus numerous instances of "other/foreign"* and "off-world" possibilities and three instances of "Tribal - [region]; there are many, you know one" to cover regions where small tribes or groups have each developed their own distinct dialect over time (this to reflect situations like here in real-world BC where there are or were once dozens of different First Nations languages and dialects in a relatively small area). A 121st "language" is silent speech, or sign language.

A short list of the most common languages are player-chooseable at roll-up, anything else has to be randomly rolled for and the roll is binding. IME most often a couple of basics are chosen and if there's any slots left over they're rolled for.

We also have it that knowing how to speak a language doesn't guarantee literacy in it (exception: arcane casters are always literate in at least their native tongue, it's a job requirement!), if the language in fact has a written form (at least half do not). For each language you know that has a written form there's a roll for literacy, influenced by your class, Intelligence, and whether you're rolling for your native tongue or a secondary.

* - "other/foreign" covers off that only a part of my game world has yet been developed in great detail, and there's much more still out there.