Compressing the skill list: Opinions?

[ruleslawyer]

Dear All,

Just thinking about compressing the skill lists in my game a bit: For instance, I've noticed that Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, and Open Lock seem to provide too little to the average rogue for four skills' worth of skill point investment. I'd love opinions on which skills might be worth folding into others (Open Lock into Disable Device, for instance) and on individual DMs' experiences with this, mainly because I can't really figure out the balance implications off the top of my head: Arcana Evolved's Stealth skill, for example (a combined Hide + Move Silently), looks a bit too good, but I haven't seen how it works in play. Opinions, flames, et cetera all welcome!

 

[Raflar]

IMC we've combined a few skills... Sneak (hide & move silently), Observe (spot & listen), we've also created Craft (precision) and Craft (creation). Precision is for the smaller things like jewelry and gemcutting - where you need fine dexterity, and creation is for bigger things like smithing, carpentry.

But we also changed a few of the skill abliity mods. We're using a variant of the old 2e Skills & Powers where each attribute is broken down into 2 sub abilities. The skills are reflected to these subskills. You can find the character sheets here as well as an explaination for them. http://www.raflar.com/fantasyrpg/houserules.php

The only problem I've seen is all the extra skill points. But then I try to get the players to put points in often overlooked skills like profession, craft, perform... to round out their characters.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I generally don't like the idea; I think there are too many skill points floating around now, and effectively increasing the number by reducing the number of skills is a bad idea, IMO. In fact, I've increased the number of skills in my campaign: adding Professions (like oracle), Knowledges (magic is different from arcana, and local must be specialized), and so forth.

For some skills I could see it, but most seem good enough to me. Certainly I'ev had people take Disable Device (with Nimble Fingers and Epic Skill Focus, even!) and Open Lock. Forgery isn't too common at all, but that's because I actively discourage its use through my campaign's legal system (its use would generally be punishable by death).

Certainly Stealth/Sneak and Observe seem much too good to me.

 

[Raflar]

I think it would depend on your players really. My players are really good with wanting extra skill points to put in superfilous skills. I also push the need for ranks in various Knowledge skills.

As far as Sneak & Observe go, it was more of an issue of saving time. Less dice rolling means more action, especially when your character is trying to sneak into a camp full of enemies, who wants to roll spot & listen 20+ times?

 

[Baragos]

I've been working on something similar to the skill categories in Rolemaster, i.e. Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Craft, Perception, etc. Each category can be increased (2 skill points for each +1). In each category there are several "specific skills", e.g. Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim. Each specific skill can be increased (1 skill point for +1). Max rank is halved but ranks in the category is added to the specific skill...ability mod is only added once, of course. Using this system you can spread out over many skills (by taking only categories) or specialize (by gooing for the specific skills), or go the middle way (taking a little in both categories and specific skills. The Feat Skill Focus can either be taken for a category (+2 to the category) or for a specific skill (+3). You may even take it for the category AND the specific skill (by using 2 feats obviously).

 

[Baragos]

I agree with Raflar's observation concerning the "sneaking into a camp full of monsters". It's a hassle (to put it mildly) to roll both a spot and a listen check for each creature. And in the case of creatures with good hearing, but bad sight, or vice versa, you can just make a note "+x on Observe checks involving sound (or sight, or smell, or whatever)"...

 

[Quickleaf]

Combining move silently & hide into Sneak, and spot & listen into Observe are great ideas; GR did this in Blue Rose. I think many others will follow suit. CRGreathouse makes a good point - you don't want to remove lots of skills, unless you replace them with new skills.

As for the 4 skills you're considering, here are my thoughts:

-Decipher Script: Add the ability to encode a message (cipher), as well as the ability to puzzle out the gist of linguistically similar writing (provided PC can read). As GM, you might consider adding more forgotten tomes, play up the role of language, and have the next dungeon full of ancient scribbling.

-Disable Device: Add the ability to disable magic items, not just traps and wagon wheels. If your campaign doesn't involve much dungeon-delving, have an enemy rogue juryrig a quick trap during an intense chase scene - such as the PC's wagon wheel falling off sending them careening over a cliff. They'll never look at Disable Device the same again. Alternately, you might decide to create a new skill more appropriate to your genre, such as Assess (a skill which allows one to appraise another character, judging their abilities).

-Forgery: This skill is really only useful in a setting where travel visas, weapon permits, writs of passage, trade agreements, and other documents regularly exchange hands. If the GM doesn't have such a world in mind, then a replacement skill is in order. Perhaps in your world there is a Culture skill (replacing Speak Languages?), or a Navigate skill (from d20 modern), or a Boating skill. Forgery could instead be made into a feat.

-Open Locks: I think your idea to combine this with Disable Device makes great sense! I think I'll borrow your idea.

 

[Sadrik]

Here are my house rules for skills, new skills and changes to old:

Agility (Dex) Untrained. Balance and Escape artist rolled into one skill. New application could be used to maintain coherency in an awkward environment. Such as floating in ether or being suspended in zero gravity.
Artillery (Int) Trained. Used for aiming, firing, reloading and upkeep of artillery and siege equipment.
Athletics (Str) Untrained. Climb, Jump and Swim rolled into a single skill.
Awareness (Wis) Untrained. Listen and Spot rolled into one skill.
Craft Alchemy (Int) Trained. Can also be used to create poisons and antidotes.
Craft Arms and Armor (Int) Trained. Used to create non-firearm arms and armor.
Craft Engineering (Int) Trained. Used to make technology such as clockwork and steamcraft items.
Craft Finery (Int) Trained. Used to make thing such as jewelry, art, gemcutting and forged documents.
Craft Locks and Traps (Int) Trained. Used to create locks and traps and to open locks and disable traps.
Heal (Int) Untrained. Is now based under intelligence.
Knowledge Architecture (Int) Trained. Knowledge of buildings, fortifications and bridges and their construction
Knowledge Cosmology (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the theoretical nature of the planes and information relating to them (elementals and outsiders)
Knowledge Geography (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the lands, seas, terrain, maps, climate, the world and how to navigate
Knowledge High Society (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the nobles and the rich and their heraldry, mottos, lineages, family trees, laws, customs, traditions and personalities
Knowledge History (Int) Trained. Knowledge of past politics, leaders, wars, colonies, migrations, laws, customs, traditions, inhabitants and personalities of the world and its people (humanoids)
Knowledge Magic (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the theoretical nature of magic, runes, magic symbols, magic phrases, magic traditions and magic items (magical beasts and dragons)
Knowledge Nature (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the wilderness’s plants, animals and beasts and seasons, weather patterns and growing seasons (surface animals, plants, vermin, monstrous humanoids, giants and fey)
Knowledge Occult (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the world’s secret societies, cults, folklore, ancient mysteries and legends (undead and lycanthropes)
Knowledge Religion (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the world’s major religions and their holy symbols, traditions, histories, phrases, celebrations and how to interact with them
Knowledge Science (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the theoretical nature of science as opposed to how to craft or use it (constructs)
Knowledge Subterranean (Int) Trained. Knowledge of the underground environment’s plants, animals and beasts and knowledge of subterranean formations and other similar things (underground animals, plants, vermin, monstrous humanoids, oozes, and aberrations)
Knowledge Underworld (Int) Trained. Knowledge of underworld figures and their organization’s laws, customs, traditions and personalities
Perform (Cha) Trained.
Pilot (Dex) Trained. Can pilot and navigate Ships or other forms of transportation such as Chariots, Steamships, Balloons or Trains.
Research (Int) Untrained. You can research a topic you don’t have the appropriate knowledge in with this skill. All DC’s are considered 5 points higher. The DM can give a library bonus depending on how good the library is on requested subject. If you have a Knowledge skill with 5 or more ranks in the subject you get a +2 synergy bonus to your research check.
Search (Int) Untrained. All characters have the rogue’s Trapfinding special ability.
Sneak (Dex) Untrained. Hide and Move Silently rolled into one skill.
Strategy & Tactics (Int) Trained. You can detect ambushes, set ambushes, command troops on the battlefield. If you have 5 or more ranks in this skill it gives you a +1 leadership for the purposes of Leadership feat.
Survival (Wis) Untrained. Is used as the Track feat was but, all base DC’s are increased by 10.
Use Device (Int) Untrained. You can figure out how to use complex technology such as clockwork and steamcraft devices. You can also repair devices that you do not have the appropriate Craft skill in with this skill. All DC’s are considered 5 points higher.
Use Magic Device (Wis) Trained. Is now based under wisdom.

 

[CRGreathouse]

-Decipher Script: Add the ability to encode a message (cipher), as well as the ability to puzzle out the gist of linguistically similar writing (provided PC can read). As GM, you might consider adding more forgotten tomes, play up the role of language, and have the next dungeon full of ancient scribbling.

-Disable Device: Add the ability to disable magic items, not just traps and wagon wheels. If your campaign doesn't involve much dungeon-delving, have an enemy rogue juryrig a quick trap during an intense chase scene - such as the PC's wagon wheel falling off sending them careening over a cliff. They'll never look at Disable Device the same again. Alternately, you might decide to create a new skill more appropriate to your genre, such as Assess (a skill which allows one to appraise another character, judging their abilities).

-Forgery: This skill is really only useful in a setting where travel visas, weapon permits, writs of passage, trade agreements, and other documents regularly exchange hands. If the GM doesn't have such a world in mind, then a replacement skill is in order. Perhaps in your world there is a Culture skill (replacing Speak Languages?), or a Navigate skill (from d20 modern), or a Boating skill. Forgery could instead be made into a feat.

I think Quickleaf's analysis is good. Removing skills wholesale should be done rarely and with caution; tweaking skills to fit your particular genre is great. My game makes Knowledges very important (so they're divided), but for a game where theyr'e incidental perhaps another skill or some other skills should be divided or added and Knowledges should be combined.

Coming up with alternate uses, though, is key to making skills useful.

 

[General Barron]

Well, my thoughts have already been posted. Combining spot + listen seems like a no-brainer to me, as does combining move silently + hide in shadows. Both are very similar skills in that you wouldn't really practice in one without practicing the other, and they are too specific as individual skills. Open lock being done with disable device also makes a ton of sense (since you are just disabling the lock, which is a device), but depending on how your adventures are designed, combining the two might result in one skill that is overly useful.

Forgery is a fairly specialized skill, but it could be very useful in certain campaigns. Decipher script is even more specialized, but less likely to be useful IMO. I'd just recommend that you 'ignore' the skill by discouraging your players to take it, and not worrying about wedging a use for it into your campaign.

The same could be said for many other skills. Heck, anyone could think up about 1000 other skills with the same range of use as decipher script, but why bother unless you have a need for it in the campaign? I'd say the same about existing skills that aren't going to be tremendously useful to your players. Just tell your players to ignore them.


Personally, I'm also doing 3 things to let players have a broader range of skills:
(1) giving all classes a minimum of 4 skill points per level (2 points is really shafting someone); (2) I'm giving 1 bonus skill point / level x the character's CHA bonus, which can only be used on CHA based skills (something to make CHA more useful); and (3) removing class skills, letting any class take any skill (with the exception of certain class-restricted skills, like use magic device). Some of these may seem a little extreme, but you could use any number of them yourself.

EDIT

Okay, I thought of a couple other skills to combine:

An easy one is sense motive -> bluff. After all, a good liar should be able to tell when others are lying as well, right?

If you want to go even further, you could combine the bluff , disguise, and even sense motive skills into profession (acting). I'd leave disguise separate myself though.

Another one would be intimidate -> diplomacy. Intimidate seems like a rather narrow skill to begin with, and combining the two makes plenty of sense if you think of diplomacy as a 'pursuasion' skill.

Balance seems like a somewhat narrow skill as well, and it could reasonably be combined with the tumble skill, which takes a lot of balance itself. Who hasn't seen gymnasts perform cartwheels on a balance beam?

Aside from it's uses in grappling, escape artist seems like an extremely narrow skill. I'm not sure of a reasonable skill to combine it with however, so perhaps turning it into a feat would make more sense.

Use rope might also be a bit narrow. One way to expand its use would be to let characters set snares, deadfalls, or other rope-based traps with it. An alternative would be to combine its use into other skills, such as survival and profession (sailor).

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If you combined all of the skills as above, then I think you would have made a sizeable dent in the amount of different skills players are forced to choose between.

My philosophy is that all skill should be equally useful (albeit in different situations). This can happen in two ways: either the skill can cover a broad enough range of activities to be as useful as other skills; or the skill can cover a small number of activities that are just so common to adventurers that they are already very useful.