Computers beat up my role player

[Morden78]

How about getting banned for creating duplicate accounts?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm just a longtime lurker. No dupes here.

 

[Gentlegamer]

However, I don't see this as particularly different from a tabletop game in which I've only got a single building which doesn't have a "destroyed form," and we all choose to remember that it's currently burning to the ground.

If the building you are refering to is a miniature of some kind, that is not the building itself, it is a visual aide. The building itself exists in the participants' imaginations and is completely mutable and changeable in response to player action and game master arbitration, including actions not anticpated by the game master or even the RAW.

So why isn't NWN an RPG? What's missing?

Total game master control over the environment and the beings in it to react in-game in non-scripted ways to extemporaneous, unanticipated actions. The scope of activity in the game must only be limited by the imagination of the participants.

The game engine of the video game necessarily limits the scope of action that the game master and players can have. Now, if somehow, the game engine becomes sufficiently advanced that the game master (which is a human) has complete spontaneous, in-game control, and the players have complete extemporaneous imaginative freedom for their characters to perform actions, then using the NWN would seem to be a form of communication by which participants can play a role-playing game, similar to a more graphically intensive WebRPG.*

*HOWEVER, I am not greatly familiar with NWN, and if it contains what are called "action elements" (as the term is used in the video game industry) it would not quite be an actual role-playing game. What I mean by this is if there is a significant element where participants' manual dexterity at manupulating the keyboard and mouse (or controller, or whatever physical input devise is in use) is crucial to succeeding at in-game tasks (such as combat), then it isn't a role-playing game.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm just a longtime lurker. No dupes here.

A long time lurker who suddenly felt urge to register and post for the first time in response to the banning of another member who had recently registered?

Why did I ever doubt you?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If the building you are refering to is a miniature of some kind, that is not the building itself, it is a visual aide.

Right, as is the 3d model in the NWN engine.

I assume you're okay with a whole building in miniature form representing a burned-out husk (and that this would not invalidate the tabletop experience as roleplaying). Are you okay with a whole building in computer form representing a burned-out husk?

If not, why not?

Total game master control over the environment and the beings in it to react in-game in non-scripted ways to extemporaneous, unanticipated actions. The scope of activity in the game must only be limited by the imagination of the participants.

The game engine of the video game necessarily limits the scope of action that the game master and players can have.

Could you explain what that means, and how it is prevented in NWN?

Could you give a couple specific examples of things you'd like to do, but you believe cannot be done in NWN (I'll keep in mind your relative unfamiliarity)?

What I mean by this is if there is a significant element where participants' manual dexterity at manupulating the keyboard and mouse (or controller, or whatever physical input devise is in use) is crucial to succeeding at in-game tasks (such as combat), then it isn't a role-playing game.

Ah, no, it doesn't. (Or, rather, I guess you could argue that it does, in that it's possible to run things real-time and so if you're slow finding the spell you'd like to cast it's like you're unintentionally delaying* ...)

However, the DM (and any players he allows) can pause the game at any time and wait for people to select actions, describe what they are doing, yell appropriate battle cries, etc.

In fact, there is at least one group of people who have posted pictures showing how they use the NWN engine and a projector to handle the game map when they are playing normal D&D.

* - Note that I have, as a DM, done the same thing when my players cannot decide what they are going to do in a reasonable amount of time: "Okay, you're delaying, we'll come back to you when you're ready."

 

[Numion]

Getting banned for making a factual observation... What will they think of next?

C'mon, he sonned Gary Gygax, creator of D&D. Even on the internet some things are sacred! :\

I can understand the mods response; while we're all equal, some should be more equal so that EN World will be visited by RPG celebs also in the future. These are small circles in the end, so no point in letting someone piss in everyones cereals.

 

[Thaniel]

In a similar vein, a video game that was from the first person POV that was all melee combat would still be termed a FPS (First Person Shooter) even though there is no shooting involved.

 

[Morden78]

A long time lurker who suddenly felt urge to register and post for the first time in response to the banning of another member who had recently registered?

Why did I ever doubt you?

Yep, because it was the first time I saw something stupid enough to warrant the effort it took to register. Not that there hadn't been enough stupid in this thread already, of both the mouth-to-ass variety and the head-up-ass kind.

 

[Morden78]

Deleted, because it was uncalled for.

 

[Numion]

What I mean by this is if there is a significant element where participants' manual dexterity at manupulating the keyboard and mouse (or controller, or whatever physical input devise is in use) is crucial to succeeding at in-game tasks (such as combat), then it isn't a role-playing game.

Sure you want to open that can of worms? Success in tasks in PnP D&D is to a high degree influenced and determined by your meta-game skills, not your ability to immerse in a role or roleplay (I'm confused by the definitions at this point..). Importance of meta-game aspects is not a good divider to non-RPGs and true RPGs, since meta-game is outside the roleplaying aspects of the game.

Players meta-game skills (for ex the ability to position miniatures in PnP D&D or the ability to punch mouse in CRPGs) is separate from the games inner reality, which is the more important divider to true RPGs and what some would call RPG simulators.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Sure you want to open that can of worms? Success in tasks in PnP D&D is to a high degree influenced and determined by your meta-game skills, not your ability to immerse in a role or roleplay (I'm confused by the definitions at this point..). Importance of meta-game aspects is not a good divider to non-RPGs and true RPGs, since meta-game is outside the roleplaying aspects of the game.

The short answer is that mental and social faculties are part and parcel of role-playing, so what is commonly called "metagaming"* in the context of role-playing games, is often simply "gaming."

Being aware of the game as game, and applying player experience (rather than attempting to limit to "only what the character knows") is safely within the umbrella of activities that constitute role-playing. Again, it is important to remember that "role assumption" and "role immersion" are not the whole of or synonyms for "role-playing" (in this context).

Physical faculties are not part and parcel of role-playing, so if they have significant importance to how your character's actions are performed, the video game falls into the "action" category.

Players meta-game skills (for ex the ability to position miniatures in PnP D&D or the ability to punch mouse in CRPGs) is separate from the games inner reality, which is the more important divider to true RPGs and what some would call RPG simulators.

If right clicking the mouse button is used to initiate an attack (possibly choosing from hot-keyed commands for different attacks or a drop-down menu), that's no different than a player sitting at a table telling the DM "I attack [by such-and-such attack form]" This doesn't fall under the "action" category, and would be fine as an example of computer interface used to play an "actual" role-playing game combat.

If, however, you must perform some kind of physical flourish with the mouse (or joystick, etc.) to get a certain attack to function (think special moves in video games like Street Fighter II), and/or must aim your attack accurately using the physical input and GUI in order to target the opponent and certain body parts, you are playing an action game, not a role-playing game.**






*We should be careful if we are going to introduce "metagaming" as a term in this discussion, because it is often thought of as a synonym for cheating in a role-playing game (because role-playing is being used as a synonym for role assumption or role immersion). In my opinion, the only "metagaming" that is cheating in a role-playing game is when the players peek at the DM's map, notes, etc. and use that knowledge to their advantage.

**Yes, this may very well call into question to what extent LARPs are actually role-playing games. I suggest we leave that can of worms alone and stay focused on video games.