Conan, Grim Tales, or Iron Heroes

I am in the midst of writing a review of Slavelords and just got seven saxons, and it's sort of reaquainting me with the charm of the game.

It's nice and flexible. I think the only thing that really put me off it was that "low magic" is not something I was looking for. But I think you can fairly play it with a bit more magic than the default.
 

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Psion said:
But I think you can fairly play it with a bit more magic than the default.

True, but if you want to go that route (high magic), you'd really be better of using a system designed to support it. If you still want the crunchy bits of Modern, I'd go with the d20 Modern core rules and the Classically Modern PDF (high fantasy using d20 Modern rules), with Fear Effects (OGL sanity rules) from 12 to Midnight thrown in for good measure.
 

ssampier said:
*nods* I was reading a review on Game Wyrd and looks right up my alley (especially the abstract wealth and action points). I like the idea of running heroes that aren't super-men and women. Thanks!

It's really a stupendous take on d20 Modern's core rules. If you're looking for a non-genre specific set of rules that emulates the conventions of pulp fiction (normal people as heroes, baroque cultures, etc), look no further than Grim Tales. I almost wept when I was forced to sell my copy before getting a chance to run a proper (i.e., lengthy) campaign with it. It really is that good.
 

I haven't read Iron Heroes, but I looked at it at a huge bookstore and read a few reviews. I do have expereince with Conan, which I still own for nostalgia's sake. I also bought Grim Tales after picking up Slavelords of Cydonia, but I sold both for simplicity's sake. I find d20 is complicated enough without adding more layers of complication on top of it. To me, D&D is just about as much information as I can handle in a game (a pass-time). All of these books (IH, Conan & GT), just make a complicated game even more complicated. It's awesome at low levels, but d20 gets out of hand at higher levels.

So, here's my recommendation out of left field: get Savage Worlds. After 25 years of playing RPGs, Savage Worlds changed the way I think about gaming; especially GMing. It really makes it fun to GM again because it is realtively simple to do so. But it preserves enough complexity for it to remain fun for players to play. Plus, it is a generic game billed as handling any genre (althoug I've only run it in modern & futuristic genres). I don't know if I can run d20 again despite my genuine love for the game. I'm contemplating some changes to my last D&D game to make it more fast, furious & fun. In other words, I want it to be more like Savage Worlds. Maybe it can work for you, too. At any rate, you can check it out via the Test Drive rules for free here:

http://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage Worlds/Savage Worlds.htm#Savage Worlds Downloads
 

Care to quickly elaborate (politely) why Grim Tales add complexity?

As for Savage Worlds, I'm not ready to learn a new game just yet, sorry. I have Warhammer 2nd edition handy for those times I don't want to play d20/D&D (and my players near-incessant desire to play the flawed 2nd edition:( ).
 

ssampier said:
Care to quickly elaborate (politely) why Grim Tales add complexity?

As for Savage Worlds, I'm not ready to learn a new game just yet, sorry. I have Warhammer 2nd edition handy for those times I don't want to play d20/D&D (and my players near-incessant desire to play the flawed 2nd edition:( ).

You can download the Savage Worlds Test Drive document for free over at Great White Games. The latest version includes a free fantasy adventure, to boot. You could at least check it out - after all, it's free, so whaddya' got to lose? ;)
 

Here's the short, polite answer:

For me, Grim Tales (GT) added too much complexity to the game on several levels. It is based on (or derived from) d20 Modern (d20M). That's great for proponents of d20M, but I also bought & sold that game in the past for similar reasons. My brain is too full of d20 D&D stuff to get into unnecessarily (for me) complicated alternate d20 rules sets. So, GT's use of the d20M classes, etc. was just too much for me. For example, there seemed to be a lot of new class abilities and feats. Plus new combat rules, magic rules, etc. If it adds too much for me to willingly undertake, then I know my players would never choose it over other gaming & nongaming options available to them to spend their leisure time.


Here's a short, polite aside on Savage Worlds (SW):

It's only 139 pages. I figure it's about 1/10 of the core d20 D&D books (PHB, DMG & MM). I sure found the information easy to process, based on having played Deadlands and d20 (and other games to a lesser extent). I think you would find it very easy to master.


Another polite aside:

I envy your possession of the new Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I investigated several reviews of it and gave it to a friend (who is an earstwhile player and DM) for his birthday. I hoped it would break him out of the D&D-only mindset. Sadly, I doubt he'll ever read it, much less expand his thinking to run it for us. Perhaps I'll pick it up someday.


Here's a longer, polite answer:

I got GT after Slavelords of Cydonia (SOC). Both are great products, just not what I sought. I looked at SOC as a possible Omega World (OW) campaign, but it promised to be more work than reward. SOC is billed as a product for advanced GMs. While I certainly consider myself one, I'm not willing to put that much work into my play. My buddies are pretty much mired in D&D-style play. They're getting better and more open, but I have learned that I need to minimize my investment as much as possible when I GM. I don't think GT is beyond their abilites either, but it is probably similarly beyond their willingness to play.

OW is probably as much as I want to take on in a d20 game at present. It really is a brilliant mini-game. It's a steal at $10 for a back issue of Dungeon #94. Jonathon Tweet presents an entire tool box for a new & interesting d20 game in about 40 pages. And, it's based on the classic Gamma World. I ran a great mini-campaign of it using the Alternity Gamma World adventures in the back of that book. Very fun. I'm even pondering how I may run The Age of Worms from Dungeon using OW. The elimination of magic has got to make the game easier to run, primarily because all the bad guys can be streamlined (SW style). Fortunately, OW characters remain fun for the players to play since they have mutations, which are essentially psionic powers instead of magic. The genius of OW is that it uses existing d20 rules for this stuff instead of entirely new machanics. The new material that is added is concise. At only 40 pages, it has to be short & sweet. That's why I love it. Here's a link for anyone who may want to pick up OW:

http://paizo.com/dungeon/products/issues/2002/94

Otherwise, Judge Dredd (JD) is the only other d20 game I've really got my eye on possibly running at this time. I've got a couple of printed moduels that I would like to finish. JD is another derivative game that uses existing mechanics as much as possible to present a new game in a new genre. Even so, I wouldn't run it now if it weren't for the adventures I have on the shelf.


If I were to run a new D&D d20 game, I would make many changes to try to simplify the game for me to DM.

* I would probably start the PCs in generic classes from Unearthed Arcana (UA). The feats available to generic classes in UA would allow the PCs to have just about any class abilities the players usually seek. The generic classes seem to add less magic but more feats, which is perfect for my evolving style of play since I want magic to be rare (especially magic items). Stripping the foes in pre-made adventures of most spells and magic items should make it much easier to run the game for me. I would not use the UA multiclassing suggestions for generic classes. Humans would have the ability to multiclass as per the PHB, but other races would be more restricted because there would be no favored classes available. I don't use prestige classes, so no further complications there.

*I might give any spellcaster access to the magic item creation feats at requisite levels but just make those items arbitrarily difficult to make. Fantastic components would probably figure in that equation rather than just money. Figuring what may be made from a fallen creature could become a neat use of the Spellcraft skill.

*I may use the alternate magic components rules from UA for alternate spellcasting focus requirements. It feels more magical that way.

*I would use the playing-card based initiative system of SW. It lessens the importance of the Dex bonus, but Dex reamins important enough anyway. Improved Initiative gets an extra card to choose from, so the feat remains useful.

*I would try to use the HARP criticals tables for all damage. On a successful hit, the attacker would roll d% + weapon damge as usual - 20%. That would preserve the d20 mechanics as much as possible but yield the wildly descriptive and potentially lethal HARP results. Combat should be more rare and deadly. Significantly, I would quit tracking the HPs of each & every bad guy and just eliminate the minions if the damage result is bad enough to incapacitate or kill them. PCs & significant foes would have damage tracked as HP reduction to make it more dramatic.


Sorry to get off topic there, but it shows why I made the suggestions I have made.
 

I'm fond of Savage Worlds, and I really liked the games I played with it, but in the end, I didn't really find it was BETTER than anything. Where it simplified some things, it added uneccessary complexity in others. Basically ... it was a role playing game. :) None of them are perfect, some are great for a certain personality or so.

One thing I did pull from SW that I found to be a timesaver was dealing initiative from a deck of cards. I converted it up a little for use in my d20 games.

I figure I, myself, use GT over IH or Conan because I HAVE GT. :) I also have d20 Modern, and I have D&D, and they're all pretty much close enough together I can interweave them without any problems to do just about anything.

I think, having looked at IH and played GT, there's a little less complexity factor there in the GMing side of things, if you're used to playing d20 systems.

Currently, for ease of GMing, I'm enjoying Spycraft 2.0's system ... basically they said: "Why should we build disposable NPCs using the same rules as PCs?" The NPCs are built on sliding scales of averaged scores (skills, attacks, defense, etc) that go up or down depending on the appropriate CR or "Threat Level" ... so a "Hit Man" can quickly be built at any, um, "Threat Level" you need.

I've never felt that NPCs need to have the same rules as PCs, just a methodology for maintaining an appropriate challenge. You can do that by building NPCs like characters ... or by bundling abilities and scores together into mathematically appropriate packages.

I likes it. I likes it alot.

--fje
 

I'm taking a much harder look at my options to mix this in with True20. I think I'm going to put together a system to make each class like a template on warrior (mashing IH class features & tokens with true20 style conviction), ditch the true20 adept, and call it a day. Oh, and bring back hit points and reserve points. True20 does 75% of what I want, 15% is covered by the hit point rules, and I'm betting I can eke that last 10% out myself with some more advanced token rules.
 

HeapThaumaturgist said:
I've never felt that NPCs need to have the same rules as PCs, just a methodology for maintaining an appropriate challenge.
--fje

I think this is a dividing point in DM styles though. Like you, I don't need to have NPCs built the same way as PCs, but other DMs (IMO) really dislike this approach.

By the way, Mastering Iron heroes introduced villain classes, and supposedly the Bestiary will bring more. As a DM with very little free time, I adore how easy creating challenges is with the Villain classes. But they aren't ever going to be balanced wit the PC classes.
 

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