Concealment Confusion / How to use Fog Cloud

[Baumi]

How do I use Fog Cloud to protect myself from Ranged Attackers?

It seems that if I cast it on the enemies they gain Disadvantage (they cannot see me) but also Advantage (I cannot see them) which results in a normal Attack. The same is true if I cast it over ourself or in between.

Did I missread something or is this a Rules-Quirk..?

 

[Nevvur]

Posting the relevant PHB text as a point of reference:
[sblock]
p.194-5

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
[/sblock]

The NPC has to guess where in the fog cloud you are. How this guessing happens is going to depend on the DM, so it's something to ask him/her. The big thing is that last line in the block above, about how making an attack reveals your location (it doesn't change the fact they can't see you, but you're no longer hidden). The DM may rule that other actions also reveal your location, like casting a spell with a verbal component. Same goes for creatures outside the fog and you targeting them.

If I were your DM, my NPCs would generally prefer to attack something outside the fog cloud, unless there's a good reason to be going directly after you. I run combats on a grid, so guessing your location would be a 1 in 56 chance (56 squares occupied by a 20 foot radius sphere), assuming you didn't reveal it through some action. They're more likely to pull out melee weapons and charge in than guess your position.

More broadly speaking, fog cloud isn't great against ranged weapon attacks unless the attackers all have advantage for some reason (e.g. kobold pack tactics + NPC allies in melee), but it's great against ranged spell attacks, because most of them require "a target you can see." They cannot target you even if they know your location.

 

[Coroc]

No you did misread nothing. If you cast it in any way (on them /in the middle /on yourself) so it does take away line of sight they got disadvantage to attack you.

This is not cancelled out by you also having disadvantage on hitting them. If you want to be able to still attack them without disadvantage though , you better use e.g. invisibility. Since you basically know that they are there, oposed to a creature surprising you with stealth, they have no advantage on you. They could use the cover you provided for a stealth check though, and so gain Advantage, but that would take an Action on them unless they are rogues with cunning Action.

It is a tactical spell in so far that their ranged power might be bigger than your Groups melee power. E.g. your frontline fighters have to close in on 10 archers.

The other use for it is out of combat, a cloud of fog might not be out of place depending on the weather. Or use to cover your escape or to give your stealthers a Chance to hide.

 

[Baumi]

Thanks for such a fast response! 8D

Coroc, my Problem got pointed out by Nevvur's PHB Text. They gain disadvantage because they cannot see you, but at the same time also gain Advantage because you cannot see them .. which cancels out. Which is a counterintuitive, but I can live with that (most RPGs have some Rule-Quirks), it just makes Fog Cloud quite hard to use, except out of combat for stealth purposes and I was wondering If I just did read it wrong.

Nevvur, don't you automatically know where the enemies are, except if they are actively hiding (which cost an action)?

 

[Oofta]

Thanks for such a fast response! 8D

Coroc, my Problem got pointed out by Nevvur's PHB Text. They gain disadvantage because they cannot see you, but at the same time also gain Advantage because you cannot see them .. which cancels out. Which is a counterintuitive, but I can live with that (most RPGs have some Rule-Quirks), it just makes Fog Cloud quite hard to use, except out of combat for stealth purposes and I was wondering If I just did read it wrong.

Nevvur, don't you automatically know where the enemies are, except if they are actively hiding (which cost an action)?

Advantage and disadvantage always cancel each other out, so from a tactical perspective there may not be a lot of reason to cast the spell in some situations.

Whether or not someone knows exactly where you are unless you succeeded in a stealth check versus their perception check is really up to your DM. In my campaign it depends on too many factors to boil down into a simple answer other than "should someone reasonably know where you are". I think of stealth checks not as an action per se, but more as a "I'm trying to be sneaky so I can't do everything I would normally do".

In other words, once the fog cloud is up you can attempt a stealth check bu that normally takes an action. However, you should ask your DM how he handles it because this is something that is intentionally left vague.

 

[Nevvur]

Nevvur, don't you automatically know where the enemies are, except if they are actively hiding (which cost an action)?

Kinda. You'll find variation among DMs in how they adjudicate stealth. I think the part that confuses most new players (especially rogues) is the expectation they can hide, sneak up behind an opponent, and do a melee backstab. In 5e, everyone has 360 degree vision at all times, as far as the mechanics are concerned, making that impossible - unless the opponent is blind or something, but then you're already getting advantage, so being hidden en route to the attack provides no extra advantage, and then your location is revealed after the attack anyway.

At my table, if you were standing in a fog cloud and not doing anything, you're hidden (unseen and unheard, per the block I posted earlier), no stealth check necessary. Cast a spell with a verbal component? You're no longer hidden. Move a few spaces within the cloud on your next turn and quaff a healing potion? Hidden again. Holding a torch in the fog? I'll rule that enough light penetrates the mists to give enemies a good idea for your center of mass, so you're no longer hidden (though a clever player might create a light source in the fog away from himself so as to draw fire!). Shoot a bow or throw a dagger? Minimal sound there, and all it really does is suggest a line of travel along the arrow path. That doesn't strictly give away your position in my book, but it can certainly narrow down the guess work for an opponent who wants to fire into the fog from outside. Try the same thing with a firearm (if they existed in my setting) and your location is definitely revealed.

As Oofta said, the stealth rules are vague. Some DMs will try their damndest to squeeze some RAW out of it, but there are many, many strange scenarios the rules don't cover. I try to make the context of the encounter meaningful when adjudicating stealth, rather than rely on the rather skimpy RAW to resolve all situations.

My advice, save the fog cloud for out-of-combat scenarios and enemy spell casters.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

How do I use Fog Cloud to protect myself from Ranged Attackers?

It seems that if I cast it on the enemies they gain Disadvantage (they cannot see me) but also Advantage (I cannot see them) which results in a normal Attack. The same is true if I cast it over ourself or in between.

You don't have to attack them. You can cast the spell between yourself and a group of ranged attackers, and then do stuff on the other side of the cloud; or you can do other things within the cloud (drink potions, for example), and gain the benefit of a free Dodge action every round. You also have the option of hiding, which is normally impossible in the middle of combat.

 

[CM]

Use the fog cloud to divide your enemies while your group concentrates on one half of them. If the other half wastes a few rounds moving to an improved position, it's worth it.

 

[Volund]

This answer may not be RAW, but it is how I have seen this rule applied, it's simple, and I think it makes sense.

Blinded: Attack rolls against blinded creatures have advantage, and attack rolls by blinded creatures are at disadvantage.

In the games I play in, this is the only rule that would apply to blinded creatures in general, and creatures with heavily obscured vision within a fog cloud specifically.

"When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." I think this sentence should be understood as a general statement that when you can see a creature but they can't see you for whatever reason (you are hidden, or they are blinded or unconscious, etc) you have advantage. I haven't had a DM rule that this language creates a new case that negates the second half of the blinded condition and allows blinded targets to make attacks without disadvantage.

Attacker can see the target, but target can't see attacker = advantage

Attacker can't see the target, whether or not target can see attacker = disadvantage

The blinded attacker would need something to negate the disadvantage in order to attack straight up: taking the Hide action, being next to a wolf totem barbarian, attacking a target after it was hit by a guiding bolt spell, etc.

 

[Dausuul]

RAW, you are correct: The advantage and disadvantage cancel out.

Our group house ruled that ranged attacks have disadvantage when attacker and target can't see each other, while melee attacks are by the book.