Condition track - wishful thinking, rumor or confirmed?

[Stalker0]

For those who haven't seen the SAGA condition track, there is a very big reason why it is NOT a typical death spiral, you can recover your penalties VERY QUICKLY.

A pc who takes one round to catch his breath can move back up on the condition track. Its not a permanent penalty that will linger for all of combat.

 

[RFisher]

Serious injuries significantly decrease performance. Ask any professional sports player.

Fair enough. I get my contrary opinion from reading studies of actual combat.

(Though it may be worth noting that: 1. The studies usually make a distinction between "effective" vs. "ineffective" rather than "alive" vs. "dead" or "conscious" vs. "unconscious". A distinction which--for me--is more apt. 2. Adrenaline seems to make up the difference up to the point the combatant becomes ineffective. 3. The studies describe what usually happens, not what always happens. If I wanted a more realistic RPG, I'd have a death spiral that you could fall into, but which you usually wouldn't.)

 

[Felon]

In your opinion, I don't play D&D for realism or what should happen. I play it because it's more fun and one of the things that's always been most fun to me was the HP mechanic and how it allowed high-level characters to do and survive the impossible.

Characters can still do and survive the impossible. A penalty on rolls isn't a death sentence, which is what the whole "death spiral" expression connotes.

If it's not fun to get hurt, either mitigate getting hurt, or have the DM consider not even having hit points. Tell everyone they can't really be killed. They're invulnerable and can survive the impossible. Nothing bad and unfun will happen to them. Sounds ridiculous, but think about it: if characters are just losing hit points without suffering any ill effects, and they're supposed to survive the impossible, and those hit points are magically replenished via wand at the end of the encounter, then that's what's happening anyway.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Characters can still do and survive the impossible. A penalty on rolls isn't a death sentence, which is what the whole "death spiral" expression connotes.

In practice it tends to be exactly that. Once the penalties start piling up it becomes impossible to avoid a rapidly increasing pile-on of damage by further attacks. As increasing damage adds on more penalties you take damage even faster and rapidly lose combat effectiveness finding it too difficult to successfully attack the enemy or avoid their attacks. Until you run out of health and the character is dead.

If it's not fun to get hurt, either mitigate getting hurt, or have the DM consider not even having hit points. Tell everyone they can't really be killed. They're invulnerable and can survive the impossible. Nothing bad and unfun will happen to them. Sounds ridiculous, but think about it: if characters are just losing hit points without suffering any ill effects, and they're supposed to survive the impossible, and those hit points are magically replenished via wand at the end of the encounter, then that's what's happening anyway.

Excluded middle fallacy.
It appears not to have registered but losing hit points IS suffering ill effects. It's a finite resource representing injury and when your character runs out they die. Having a 14th level barbarian able to get pincushioned by twelve arrows and keep fighting without hindrance until he's finally dropped is for me both more fun and more heroic than most of the alternatives.

 

[Oldtimer]

Having a 14th level barbarian able to get pincushioned by twelve arrows and keep fighting without hindrance until he's finally dropped is for me both more fun and more heroic than most of the alternatives.

And using an SWSE-type Condition Track wouldn't change that. An arrow hit would hardly push him down the Condition Track, so after taking twelve arrows in his body, he'll still be at the top of the Condition Track.

The thing to understand here: SWSE Condition Track does not track your hit point damage as such, but extraordinary stuff like massive damage hits, poison, etc. Puny arrows don't change your position on the Condition Track.

Actually, when you analyze this mathematically, you'll find that most characters will actually reach zero hit points long before they reach the bottom of the Condition Track as long as the are only taking regular damage. The SWSE Condition Track is for mixing other influences with heavy damage - not counting how close to zero hit points you are.

 

[KarinsDad]

Having a 14th level barbarian able to get pincushioned by twelve arrows and keep fighting without hindrance until he's finally dropped is for me both more fun and more heroic than most of the alternatives.

Have you played "most of the alternatives"? If not, how do you know what will be more fun? This sounds like an "we always did it this way, so this way is best" type of argument.

 

[Li Shenron]

First, I don't understand why so much love for a death spiral system... the only thing like that in 3ed was level drain, and last time I checked everyone was rejoicing that level drain doesn't exist anymore.

A death spiral system as a default (meaning that it will happen to the PCs and against every single opponent) sounds a terrible idea to me. What is its purpose? If you want to scare the players (an exciting thing) it's best to limit death spiral effects to specific monsters, meaning that the PC will experience the spiral when fighting against them. If you want to warn them that it's time to run, low HP do just the same.

Otherwise, as a default you only achieve the result that the party who tilts the battle to its favor in the early rounds is going to accrue more and more advantages. Realistic yes, fun hell no! It means to always encourage the use of heaviest powers asap, and it means to make it more unlikely to see a battle that seems lost and becomes a victory.

Second, a death spiral system with a fixed condition table is IMHO too rigid to be fun at all, if every single time you're down 75% you get (e.g.) the same penalty to attack, then at 50% you're (e.g.) slowed, and so on... To be fun and interesting, it needs some variance, so that you cannot always know beforehand what kind of penalty you'd get. Too complex to be core, but would be nice as a variant in the 4e UA.

Anyway... I seriously think that there will not be a death spiral system in 4e. The "bloodied" condition will most likely trigger a benefit such as a special ability, eventually but not necessarily with added penalties (IMHO the 3ed Barbarian Rage is a good example). And I also think that the exact condition will not be the same for every creature, but each can have a different one. It might remain as a default for everyone to get the "blooded" condition, meant as being more/less subject to certain attacks depending on the abilities of those you're fighting against.

 

[Oldtimer]

First, I don't understand why so much love for a death spiral system... <snip>
Second, a death spiral system with a fixed condition table is IMHO too rigid to be fun at all, if every single time you're down 75% you get (e.g.) the same penalty to attack, then at 50% you're (e.g.) slowed, and so on...

*sigh*
Again, the Condition Track from SWSE is NOT a death spiral. It does NOT give you a penalty when you're down to 75% hp and another at 50%, etc. Such a penalty track would be bad. Such a penalty track would be a death spiral.

The Condition Track (SWSE implied) is not such a death spiral. Repeat, NOT.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Have you played "most of the alternatives"? If not, how do you know what will be more fun? This sounds like an "we always did it this way, so this way is best" type of argument.

Played the OWOD Werewolf, GURPS 3e & 4e, Exalted 1e & 2e, Albedo 2e, Ironclaw, Cyberpunk 2020. It sounds from the replies that I'm being overly leery toward the condition track, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and see what there is about it. Probably more to check out at the WoTC site. But after dealing with the WW death spiral I'm very cautious about adding anything that could become similar to D&D which I've always favored because of a system that had a very different feel to its combat system.

 

[KarinsDad]

Otherwise, as a default you only achieve the result that the party who tilts the battle to its favor in the early rounds is going to accrue more and more advantages. Realistic yes, fun hell no!

We've used such a system for years and the game has always been fun. Out of a few dozen players using such a system, not one has ever said that this bugged him or her. Not one.

You are making assumptions about what can and cannot be fun which do not match reality in an actual game.

Rolemaster has such a system and there are thousands of people who have fun playing RM as well.

And, I've never seen the players pull out the big guns early on for this because they are not so stupid as to not realize that they might need them later on. A -1 penalty at verious HP levels is not a death spiral. It's an obstacle. One for players to overcome. I've used such as system for years and I've never seen it overwhelm the standard rules and create a death spiral. The math and actual game experience disagrees with your conclusions.

According to your theory here, a Bless spell is a death spiral if one side casts it.