Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

[AllisterH]

Because the creaturee is not the player's character.

I would disagree with this since, in all respects of how it acts, summoned critters act as the player character wants.

That still leaves the situation where you shapechange into a different creature. If I'm a druid and I shapechange into a bear, why do I give up my character to the DM? Why NOT have the stats listed IN the book itself, next to the ability?

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Huh? I'm not sure whether this is meant seriously or not.

Is it meant seriously.

In regards to magic items, it is easy for a DM to keep characters from buying tons of magical items: give them magical items instead of money. If they have items but no money, they the are taking a loss (in the current rules at least) if they go and sell them to get what they want. Of course, I'm not sure how keeping the character / player away from what they "want" is increasing the fun.

I despise the entire idea of PCs buying magic items -- whether I am a player or a DM. It kills the wonder. It makes them too commonplace. It doesn't fit with the legends and stories I know. It has always been the thing I've hated the most about 3E. As a player, I enjoy making do with what is found or won or given.

"Adjudicate" specifically means "to act as a judge." That's the DM's job. I'm not opposed to players rolling the dice, but the choice of the word "adjudicate" was the issue. As to how much information the players should have, it varies.

Here's how it might work in earlier editions: player casts "Monster Summoning VI," and DM rolls randomly on a chart in his MM to see what monster appears. Maybe he gets an umber hulk. The DM thinks it is better that the PCs not know the exact AC, HP, and saving throws of this creature in case he wants to use it against them (he wants to prevent metagaming). So maybe he lets the players roll the dice, but he keeps track of the results.

Polymorph? The PC turns into a creature that he has seen (not browsing through the MM for the right form) and the DM tells him what abilities he gets. "Frost giant? Okay, you'll do damage as a frost giant, and you can throw rocks, but you're not immune to cold."

I think in the long run that reducing the emphasis on DM judgment and trying to define everything precisely in the rules leads to a weaker game.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Because the creaturee is not the player's character.

No, but it is an extension of the character, much the same as an arrow or a thrown spear. It is acting at the whim and under the command of the character. Having the DM control a summoned creature means introducing just one more barrier to slow down the game as the player has to tell the DM what the character wants the creature to do. The chance for misinterpretation introduces an unnecessary opportunity for frustration and argument in exchange for absolutely nothing. Nothing is added to the game experience by consolidating this level of control in the hands of the DM.

 

[Dragonblade]

Seems to be continuing and even exacerbating the 3E trend.
Players shouldn't be equipping their PCs with magic items; DMs should be equipping the PCs with magic items.

This? Yes.

Players shouldn't need the Monster Manual to adjudicate shapechanging or summoning effects; DMs should adjudicate all effects of any kind whatsoever.

This? No. I have enough to deal with by running my NPCs and monsters. If players summon something or shapechange into something that should be the player's responsibility to deal with. Now not only is it their responsibility, I no longer have to worry about them min-maxing the best possible thing to shapechange into or summon by reading through the monster manual. I like this a lot.

And if I'm playing I prefer to run my own summoned creatures. I consider them an extension of my character.

 

[Atreides]

I would infer that most adjudications regarding polymorph are simply gone. See the PHB II for the 'new' Druid Shapeshifing mechanic - there are generic 'form types' that you can shift into, and regardless of what flavor you attach to them the forms grant a specific series of bonuses - no Monster Manual needed.

It is quite the improvement over the PHB polymorph situation.

As for summoning monsters - I would guess that Summon Monster I-IX are also gone, and summoning will now be closer to Summon Planar Ally.

 

[Wormwood]

It is quite the improvement over the PHB polymorph situation.

You have a gift for understatement.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

No, but it is an extension of the character, much the same as an arrow or a thrown spear. It is acting at the whim and under the command of the character. Having the DM control a summoned creature means introducing just one more barrier to slow down the game as the player has to tell the DM what the character wants the creature to do. The chance for misinterpretation introduces an unnecessary opportunity for frustration and argument in exchange for absolutely nothing. Nothing is added to the game experience by consolidating this level of control in the hands of the DM.

I think it would add something. I play a Drd20 in MarauderX's game. This druid uses summoning spells. He gets animals that have a 1 or 2 Int and don't speak Common. Unless he casts Speak with Animals, he can't direct them precisely. They don't have the information that he does, so he can't expect that they'll always act optimally. It's difficult to know who they should attack or how they should act, since they're just dumb beasts.

We're in the middle of a major battle right now, with three Animal Growthed T-Rexes boosted by bard songs and attacking a Great Wyrm White Dragon they they have cornered (they're really serving as meat shields to block his movement). If the dragon casts Prot Good on himself, should I, on my turn, have my dinosaurs waste their turn trying to attack the dragon? That seems like more honest and better gaming, though it's going to hurt the PCs. Or should I have my druid cast Speak With Animals and direct the dinosaurs differently? Is it reasonable for one of them to attack the enemy giant that just attacked him? Or will he keep to his original orders?

It's really hard; they're NOT extensions of the PC the way an arrow is. So I'll ask the DM what they'll do.

 

[Stone Dog]

No, but it is an extension of the character, much the same as an arrow or a thrown spear. It is acting at the whim and under the command of the character.

Obviously the DM should be rolling for fireballs too since those aren't the character either.

Summoned creatures may be happy about being summoned, they may be sad, they may laugh at your jokes.. but above all they do exactly what you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. They have no opportunity to rebel, resist or hesitate. There is no reason to put that level of total control in the hands of the DM. It just gives the DM something else to worry about that he doesn't have to.

I'm fine with magic items being in the PHB too. All it does is help the player plan what they want for their character. The availability is still completely up to the DM just like not every podunk hamlet is going to have glittering masterwork spiked chains just because the PHB tells you how much they are.

 

[Rechan]

Because the creaturee is not the player's character.

I have never, ever seen a DM ever propose running summoned creatures, animal companions or familiars of a PC. As a DM, that notion makes me queasy thinking that I have to keep track of all their stats and actions in combat in addition to monsters. And as a PC, it insults me that I wouldn't have the leeway to play my familiar, because that's half the fun of having one.

I have seized such creatures to puppet the DM for a plot point, just as I have seized PCs to tell them what they do when they are Dominated.

And while I agree with you that the notion of buying magical items obliterates the sense of wonder, I would also point out that, when one is making a non-1st level PC, they are picking magical items they themselves have acquired in their adventures. And, PCs who are using those magical items during game should have access to their rules in the PHB just like the rules over their abilities.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I despise the entire idea of PCs buying magic items -- whether I am a player or a DM. It kills the wonder. It makes them too commonplace. It doesn't fit with the legends and stories I know. It has always been the thing I've hated the most about 3E. As a player, I enjoy making do with what is found or won or given.

I'll echo the collective "Huh?"

Just because items are in the PHB doesn't mean the DM loses control of how items are distributed in the game. Their inclusion doesn't mean PCs are free to buy them at will.

But once the DM does give the PCs items, it makes sense that the players have easy access to see how they work without having to borrow the DMG in the middle of the game.