Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

[Stone Dog]

It's really hard; they're NOT extensions of the PC the way an arrow is. So I'll ask the DM what they'll do.

It isn't hard at all. Okay, sure if you want them to do anything other than kill your opponents then you have to be able to talk with them ala Speak With Animals. Other than that they just go and kill things that are trying to kill you. How hard is that? Dirt simple.

And what exactly makes the T-Rexs hindered by Protection from Good? Just let the Rexes chomp down and roll for them.

Summoned creatures attack your enemies. If you can tell them what else to do, they do it right away. They don't run away or show mercy or stop to have a snack in the middle of a fight. Unless you can tell them otherwise. It isn't hard work. They are YOUR spell effects. They are just as much your responsibility as fireballs and shadowy tentacles and other such and sundries.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

But once the DM does give the PCs items, it makes sense that the players have easy access to see how they work without having to borrow the DMG in the middle of the game.

This is true.

Unless, of course, one likes the PCs to not know that they have a +1 sword, even after three weeks and 20 combats. Why someone would like this, I really have no idea, but I'm sure there are some people who do.

Brad

 

[Cadfan]

1: Putting magic items in the PHB doesn't mean that the players get to pick and choose amongst them. It just means that information the player uses during the game is in one book instead of two.

2: There are DMs who take control of summoned creatures? Do they do the same for familiars, animal companions, and divine mounts? I never even considered doing that.

3: I don't even know what it means to say that the DM should adjudicate shapechanging effects. That's like saying that the DM should adjudicate sword effects. If the rules are written well, there's nothing to adjudicate. The player says they shapechange into a wolf, ok, they're a wolf now. I, as DM, do not have to make up rules for how that works. Its in the book.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In previous editions, players were strongly discouraged from looking at the DM sections of books. They didn't know the abilities of monsters or the abilities of magic items.

This really, truly, DID increase the fun and the sense of wonder in my experience. That's not nostalgia. Most players that I have known enjoy a sense of mystery and the experience of discovery.

When I, as a DM, got a chance to play, I really enjoyed playing in games with creative DMs. Monsters whose abilities I didn't know; magic items with abilities that were mysterious.

3E put way too much information into players' hands.

On reflection, 4E might do better if its summoning and shapechanging rules are truly limited. There would still be enough room for mysterious and wondrous creatures that the players are NOT familiar with through their own abilities.

Magic item abilities? Some you can give the players right away, but others it's best to keep hidden. Suppose you have a custom Rod of Wonder. A player with access to the table might look and say "Okay, there's a 60% chance of getting a beneficial result here," whereas a player without that table has to figure it out in-game. The latter is a lot more fun IMO.

I really think the game would be just fine with no familiars or animal companions and very rare summoned creatures. BECMI had Conjure Elemental as a 5th-level spell, and it was dangerous to use, and there were really no other spells or abilities. Having played a 3.5 druid, I can tell you the game moves a lot faster when you skip the zoo (although it's also a lot harder to succeed without the zoo).

 

[Wormwood]

In previous editions, players were strongly discouraged from looking at the DM sections of books. They didn't know the abilities of monsters or the abilities of magic items.

Well, at least for a while.

Having played a 3.5 druid, I can tell you the game moves a lot faster when you skip the zoo (although it's also a lot harder to succeed without the zoo).

On this point you and I are in COMPLETE agreement.

I *hate hate hate* having perfectly good game time being sucked up by Mister Menagerie.

 

[Raven Crowking]

For what it's worth (about 2 cp), in my homebrewed rules, animal stats are covered as an appendix. Of course, this is important because some of those animals might be PCs, but it is also useful for summoning creatures, etc., as well as statting out party pets and mounts.

I use an easy mechanic that says that a spellcaster must have studied a particular creature in order to summon it. In this case, "studied" means you have the statcard ready. That makes my life as a DM much easier.

OTOH, I don't think that PCs should have magic items at their fingertips. I think that magic items are far "cooler" & much more fun when sometimes unexpected things happen. For instance, when that snake-shaped mace suddenly opens its mouth and bites the target on a critical, delivering a dose of poison to the foe, that is a thrilling jolt for the player, and reinforces the idea that magic isn't always tame or well understood.



RC

 

[Brother MacLaren]

It isn't hard at all. Okay, sure if you want them to do anything other than kill your opponents then you have to be able to talk with them ala Speak With Animals. Other than that they just go and kill things that are trying to kill you. How hard is that? Dirt simple.

Really? In a combat with 12+ possible opponents to choose from, NONE of which attacked my PC in the most recent round? Many of which would attack in ways that a dinosaur could not perceive?
It is the decision of WHICH enemies to attack that isn't simple. Will they attack the dragon, the giant, the monk, or one of the undead casters?

And what exactly makes the T-Rexs hindered by Protection from Good? Just let the Rexes chomp down and roll for them.

It blocks physical contact from non-evil summoned creatures.

 

[IanB]

Which means more space in MM for monsters and less space wasted with cats and dogs, although I think there will be animals in MM, but maybe a page or two.

It was discussed in this thread. I'm glad this information was confirmed!

This assumes that summons will work like they do in 3.0/3.5 where the lists are dominated by different animals. I'm not sure we have any reason to believe that will be true in 4th edition; personally I would expect a fair amount of the MM (more than one or two pages, anyway) to be devoted to 'normal' creatures, much as it always has been.

 

[MaelStorm]

The DM thinks it is better that the PCs not know the exact AC, HP, and saving throws of this creature in case he wants to use it against them (he wants to prevent metagaming). So maybe he lets the players roll the dice, but he keeps track of the results.

Polymorph? The PC turns into a creature that he has seen (not browsing through the MM for the right form) and the DM tells him what abilities he gets. "Frost giant? Okay, you'll do damage as a frost giant, and you can throw rocks, but you're not immune to cold."

How can you stop this from happening? When every PC can buy Monster book at the shop. The cat is already out of the box, don't you see?

I agree it's impossible to memorize everything, but your PC can come back to the next game and try to memorize all his summoning monsters stats.

Even worst, because you forbid this, it could be even more tempting for your PCs to memorize has much monsters as possible. When the DM is less protective about information, the players are less tempted to get the information in the first place.

I think in the long run that reducing the emphasis on DM judgment and trying to define everything precisely in the rules leads to a weaker game.

You are free to run your game as you wish.

But IMO, I'm for the arguments that the less the DM has on his mind, the more he can focus on running his game.

 

[Celebrim]

Summoned Creatures: These are clearly part of the domain of the DM. They are NPC's. It's is the DM's role to run NPC's.

The srd states:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

They are clearly not mere extensions of a players will. Like any other NPC, the player must have his character communicate with them in character if he wishes to direct them to do anything specific. It is then entirely up to the DM how to run the summoned character, and it is entirely up to the DM to personify it - how it feels about being summoned, its feelings toward the summoned character and the task at hand, its desires and understanding of the situation, what mannerisms it has and so forth. The fact that this particular NPC is rarely called on to be in any way interesting doesn't mean it's entirely under the DM's control.

I'm astounded that people are used to running thier own familiars. What's the fun of that? Do you set there talking with yourself? Does your familiar never get into mischief? Does it never have a mind of its own? Sure, it's your familiar, and you may direct, command and rebuke it in a way that you can direct and command few NPC's, and there is very little that the DM could do with a familiar that you cannot overrule, but that too is part of the fun. A familiar is such a limited part of a Wizard's arsenal that what possible justification could you have for having one if not for the fun of having an interesting NPC at your beck and call?

I speak from experience in this. One of my all time favorite NPC's was one of my PC's familiars. Again, its an usual NPC in the amount of influence I had over the creation of the character, but it was certainly never my character.