Confused about gold totals (4e)

[Elfshire]

In adventure three, the text says the players should have "about 12,800 gold" per person by the end. But if you total all the adventures' stipends up to that point (and add 100gp for starting gold), you get 17,395.

After building a spreadsheet to examine things further, I noticed several inconsistencies.

• The predictions for how much gold each party member should have, listed in the Rewards section of each adventure, is always off by at least a few thousand.
• The stipends given out in levels 1-7 (up through the end of Chapter 3) pretty closely reflect the Treasure Parcel system in standard 4e, which makes sense. After that, though, they start falling way short of the mark, being almost 75k short at the end of adventure 7.
• Level 13's stipend in particular is the only one that is actually smaller than the stipend just before it. And Level 12's wasn't even a double-stipend.

I'm not trying to criticize; 4e Wealth by Level is baffling by all accounts. The game basically has two systems for wealth: one for equipping a character that wasn't created at first level, and one for organically developed characters (Treasure Parcels). The Parcel system is far more generous, making pregen characters very underpowered. And it doesn't help that Wizards really doesn't use the Parcel System in its own published adventures, suggesting that there's a THIRD unwritten system out there for determining how much loot to give out. So I imagine coming up with a wealth progression for ZG that follows any sort of "official" 4e progression is kind of a crapshoot.

I'm just putting this out there because I'm trying to figure out how much of this is intentional, and I don't want my PCs to be under- or over-equipped.

 

[eamon]

In my experience, organically developed PC's have much more gold, but nevertheless are generally weaker when it comes to magic items

It's not just about wealth totals, it's also about flexibility in getting the stuff your character most needs. The organically developed PC's excess wealth is all in high-level items handed out as treasure parcels. These kind of treasures just don't compensate for missing (say) the level 2 eagle eye goggles and whatnot. If you were to assume that most magic items will be sold, then the wealth advantage tilts towards the new characters.

In any case, this is all really DM and campaign dependent.

As to Zeitgeist - that changes the dynamic pretty heavily by making trade-ins free. No longer is 80% of wealth destroyed when you sell an item, and that means that characters need much less income to reach the same wealth.

Finally, 4e's wealth system is extraordinarily robust because of its geometric scaling. A full factor 5 more wealth simply equates to 5 extra levels on each item (and that's very roughly similar to a +1 to defenses and attacks). So even if you're off by a factor five - and that's pretty excessive, I hope you'll agree - we're still in the ballpark of a +1 bonus - powerful, sure, but not game-breaking by itself.

 

[Elfshire]

All good points, which make me much less nervous about these numbers.

 

[hirou]

I have a similar question related to the very start of Zeitgeist. Stipend for first level plus suggested gold reward (728*5+120) equals total suggested reward according to DMG, but the module also says that party can keep three icons from Axis island, which are lvl 2, 3 and 4 rare items. These 3 almost double the actual reward from the first level. Am I reading something wrong?

 

[Elfshire]

They should only be keeping those icons if you're using the optional rules where the party is not working for the RHC, and therefore not getting a stipend. Otherwise, they have to requisition and pay for the icons after the adventure's close.

 

[hirou]

They should only be keeping those icons if you're using the optional rules where the party is not working for the RHC, and therefore not getting a stipend. Otherwise, they have to requisition and pay for the icons after the adventure's close.

This... actually makes sense, both in-game and mathematically. I've read through "Rewards" section again and now understand it's logic, thank you.

 

[Elfshire]

Any chance Ryan or someone can confirm some of these numbers? My players are concerned that the RHC is downgrading their pay... the 9600 stipend at the start of ch4 they're getting is supposed to be for two levels, but it's LESS than twice the value of the previous paycheck.

 

[RangerWickett]

Remind me during daylight hours and I'll dredge up where I saved my original rationale. It might be that I misinterpreted 4e gearage.

The idea I have shot for is that, if you make a character at a given level, you level -1, level-1, level, and level+1 worth of stuff. Since we're letting PCs requisition items and return them at cost, they're effectively able to custom pick their gear just like new characters.

So with that in mind, I should be able to figure out how much those item value totals are each level, and then figure out the difference between each, and that should be the stipend.

Items cost:
Level 1 - 360
Level 2 - 520
Level 3 - 680
Level 4 - 840
Level 5 - 1000
Level 6 - 1800
Level 6 - 2600
Level 7 - 3400
Level 8 - 4200
Level 9 - 5000

So at level 2 you get 360 + 360 +520 + 680 = 1920.

At level 3 you get 520 + 520 + 680 + 840 = 2560. So the stipend ought to be 640.

At level 4 you get 680 + 680 + 840 + 1000 = 3200. Stipend is 640.

At level 5 you get 840 + 840 + 1000 + 1800 = 4480. Stipend is 1280.

At level 6 you get 1000 + 1000 + 1800 + 2600 = 6400. Stipend is 1920.

At level 7 you get 1800x2 + 2600 + 3400 = 9600. Stipend is 3200.

At level 8 you get 2600x2 + 3400 + 4200 = 12800. Stipend is 3200.

At level 9 you get 3400x2 + 4200 + 5000 = 16000. Stipend is 3200.

At level 10 you get 4200x2 + 5000 + 9000 = 22400. Stipend is 6400.

What did I actually do? *checks adventures*

Hm. In adventure 3 they gain 3 levels, from 5th to 8th. So they ought to get 1920 + 3200 + 3200 = 8320. I ended up actually giving them 2900 + 3760 + 5260, which I think is what you get if you look at the values of treasure parcels that the game assumes you give out.

In adventure 4, though, they're supposed to go up 2 levels, from 8 to 9, then 9 to 10. I gave the party a stipend of 3200 + 6400. Which is what was supposed to happen, if my math is right and my rationale makes sense.

So what happened, basically, is that I started by giving the party stipends with value equal to what they would get in the course of normal adventuring. But that assumes you're trading in items for less than full value, and that some gear doesn't match what you need. So with adventure 3 the audit gets them where they ought to be (12800 total when you're at 8th level).

Does that make sense? In-world, the explanation is that the bureaucrats got antsy about how much money they were spending in Flint after the whole Cauldron Hill debacle, so they trimmed funding.

 

[hirou]

4ed has a known problem that character wealth depends on the level he started adventuring and on the size of the party, since DMG provides different ways to calculate wealth of new character at arbitrary level (3 magic items + money parcel) and wealth gained adventuring (treasure parcels). There's a good thread (only available through Waybackmachine now) on WotC forums, which summarizes the PC wealth calculated by different means

 

[Morrus]

Here it is.

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 613"] [TR] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]

Party of 4​

[/TD] [TD]

Party of 5​

[/TD] [TD]

Party of 6​

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 47"]

Level​

[/TD] [TD="width: 77"]

Magic Item Cost​

[/TD] [TD="width: 100"]

party gp at start of level using parcels (DMG p126)​

[/TD] [TD="width: 109"]

wealth by character (gp) using starting character values (L-1, L, L+1 items and L-1 gp)​

[/TD] [TD="width: 91"]

cumulative wealth by character (gp) using parcel values (DMG p126)​

[/TD] [TD="width: 91"]

cumulative wealth by character (gp) using parcel values (DMG p126)​

[/TD] [TD="width: 91"]

cumulative wealth by character (gp) using parcel values (DMG p126)
​

[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]360[/TD] [TD="align: right"]0[/TD] [TD="align: right"]100[/TD] [TD="align: right"]100[/TD] [TD="align: right"]100[/TD] [TD="align: right"]100[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]520[/TD] [TD="align: right"]720[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,920[/TD] [TD="align: right"]870[/TD] [TD="align: right"]852[/TD] [TD="align: right"]840[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]3[/TD] [TD="align: right"]680[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,040[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,560[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,924[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,873[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]840[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,355[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,200[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,649[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,443[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,306[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,680[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,480[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,819[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,353[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,800[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,400[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,669[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,339[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,119[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]7[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,600[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,600[/TD] [TD="align: right"]9,600[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12,099[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11,819[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,400[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,200[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12,800[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18,169[/TD] [TD="align: right"]17,459[/TD] [TD="align: right"]16,986[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,200[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,800[/TD] [TD="align: right"]16,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]26,419[/TD] [TD="align: right"]25,059[/TD] [TD="align: right"]24,153[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]10[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,400[/TD] [TD="align: right"]22,400[/TD] [TD="align: right"]37,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]35,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]34,386[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]11[/TD] [TD="align: right"]9,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]32,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]51,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]49,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]48,219[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]12[/TD] [TD="align: right"]13,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]48,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]70,769[/TD] [TD="align: right"]68,339[/TD] [TD="align: right"]66,719[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]13[/TD] [TD="align: right"]17,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]26,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]64,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]99,019[/TD] [TD="align: right"]95,139[/TD] [TD="align: right"]92,553[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]14[/TD] [TD="align: right"]21,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]34,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]80,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]140,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]133,139[/TD] [TD="align: right"]128,386[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]15[/TD] [TD="align: right"]25,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]42,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]112,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]194,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]185,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]179,553[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]16[/TD] [TD="align: right"]45,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]50,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]160,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]265,769[/TD] [TD="align: right"]255,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]248,719[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]17[/TD] [TD="align: right"]65,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]90,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]240,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]362,019[/TD] [TD="align: right"]349,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]341,219[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]18[/TD] [TD="align: right"]85,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]130,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]320,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]503,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]483,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]470,386[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]19[/TD] [TD="align: right"]105,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]170,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]400,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]709,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]673,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]649,553[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]20[/TD] [TD="align: right"]125,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]210,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]560,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]980,769[/TD] [TD="align: right"]935,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]905,386[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]21[/TD] [TD="align: right"]225,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]800,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,337,019[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,285,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,251,219[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]22[/TD] [TD="align: right"]325,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]450,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,200,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,818,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,755,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,713,719[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]23[/TD] [TD="align: right"]425,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]650,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,600,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,524,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,425,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,359,553[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]24[/TD] [TD="align: right"]525,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]850,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,000,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,555,769[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,375,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,255,386[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]25[/TD] [TD="align: right"]625,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,050,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,800,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,912,019[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,685,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,534,553[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]26[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,125,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,000,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,693,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,435,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,263,719[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]27[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1,625,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,000,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]9,099,519[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,785,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,576,219[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]28[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,125,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8,000,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12,005,769[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11,635,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11,388,719[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]29[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2,625,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4,250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10,000,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]15,287,019[/TD] [TD="align: right"]14,885,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]14,617,886[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="align: right"]30[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,125,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5,250,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11,500,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18,943,269[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18,435,539[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18,097,053[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]
[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,125,000[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6,250,000[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]
[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,125,000[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]
[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3,125,000[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [TD]
[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]