Conjuror advice

[Trouvere]

Hmmm. The need to take Spell Mastery and Arcane Spontaneity (LEW feat) after 3rd level spells are achieved makes it very difficult to use Conjurer to enter, or to combine anything with lots of Paragon levels.

Ranger 1 / Wizard 6 works, since you can spend the Wizard 5 bonus feat on Spell Mastery and the 6th level feat on Arcane Spontaneity. With the Endurance requirement, that's a lot of wasted feats.

You could possibly convince the LEW judges that you can qualify to take Arcane Spontaneity without having Spell Mastery using the specialist Illusionist class variant Illusion Mastery, but I doubt it.

Wouldn't it be easier just to use Bard or Sorcerer, removing the need for those feats entirely? If you use Sorcerer, an initial Ranger level is needed so that Knowledge (nature) is a class skill (cross class, you can't qualify for Learner until 10th level). Ranger 1 / Sorcerer 6 qualifies, with base saves of +4/+4/+5. So, while we're on the subject of Paragons, would Human Paragon 1 / Sorcerer 1 / Paragon +2 / Sorcerer +3, with saves +2/+2/+6, a bonus feat and +2 to an ability.

Considering that Learner needs Wis for talents/day, Int for skills and talents known, Cha for talent saves, Con like everyone else and Dex since it's built on an arcane base and can only use light armor without ASF for talents (everything except Str!), some ability increases would be nice.

You know, I just don't think the Learner PrC works. Things have been going well for you; you're a spellcasting level behind your single-classed Sorcerer friend (and your Wizard friend has 4th level spells), but now you finally have 3rd level spells, including Summon Monster III. You enter Learner. You can pick up 3+Int 1st level talents.

Using your Summon Monster spells, you can learn:
(1) the small air elemental's whirlwind, (2) the small water elemental's vortex (and how are they supposed to work?) and (3) the hell hound's fiery bite. At Learner 2, you can gain (4) the dretch's telepathy and (5) the hell hound's breath weapon.

For anything else, you're dependent on a DM throwing just the right sort of monster at you, which in LEW's living world is not quite as simple as it sounds. You're not ordinarily going to find every one of the weirder or more deadly monsters living a day outside Orussus.

You could also ask a full caster friend to help out with higher level Summon Monster spells. But from looking over the list, even without using these to examine a monster under controlled conditions, the Learner seems to gain abilities that are similar to spells several levels later than a normal caster would: charm person and entangle at 8th; blink, slow, tongues and magic circle against evil at 10th; enervation, detect thoughts and displacement at 11th; dimension door at 12th; true seeing at 13th; plane shift, teleport and ethereal jaunt at 14th. What's the point?

 

[Theroc]

Well, for one I did not realize Charisma was a prerequisite for saves. That basically makes an effective learner nearly impossible. If it was just Wis and Int, it may have been doable, or just wis and cha, or int and cha.

The reason I liked the PrC was for flavor reasons. I didn't mind possibly being a bit 'weaker'... but the more I'm hearing of the PrC it sounds like it's a really, really poor man's sorcerer.

So, as awesome as it is flavorwise, I may end up passing it up.

 

[Trouvere]

If you'll allow me a lengthy digression....
There are two types of 'optimization'. Let me give an example.
Innocent poster wanders along and says "Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?"
A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC.
The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says "Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix. Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd." He has a friend who parrots "Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle" whenever anyone mentions a melee class. Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer. Real helpful.

So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

But this Learner... well, I really don't get it. It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again. I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge. I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels.

I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues. But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting.

 

[Theroc]

If you'll allow me a lengthy digression....
There are two types of 'optimization'. Let me give an example.
Innocent poster wanders along and says "Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?"
A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC.
The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says "Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix. Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd." He has a friend who parrots "Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle" whenever anyone mentions a melee class. Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer. Real helpful.

So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

But this Learner... well, I really don't get it. It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again. I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge. I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels.

I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues. But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting.

I see what you're saying, and after realizing the MAD Learner incurs(worse than any other build I've heard of), and knowing I lose casting levels, it feels like I'm cutting off my right hand to attach a dead hand that has half the capability of the other.

The only advantage a Learner has is a larger repertoire of weaker abilities.

I love the concept, but the implementation does seem very, very wonky. Hm... perhaps I should attempt to rework the PrC as a proposal? I can still see it being an arcane approach, but perhaps a more ranger oriented approach might work.

Favored enemy bonus applying to the observation rolls, etc... a 'Know thy enemy' sort of deal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The concept of the character is a hands-on researcher of monsters, to an extent. Not quite totally the 'genius laboratory' type, but one who observes things and is fascinated with monsters, so a focus on summoning.

I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger."

I see what you're saying, and after realizing the MAD Learner incurs...
I love the concept, but the implementation does seem very, very wonky...I can still see it being an arcane approach, but perhaps a more ranger oriented approach might work.

I love the concept, and agree that the PrCl is just a bit too wonky, even for me. I'm not usually MAD averse, but this one? WHEW!

So, at the risk of venturing into "bad optimizer" territory...

Were I designing a PC based on the concept, I'd probably concentrate on either Ranger or Druid as the "nature" class, and Specialist Conjuror (Focused Specialist?) for the arcane side of things, loading up on the conjuration Reserve Feats, maybe even some of the Conjuration alternative class features. (Obviously dependent upon what is available.) If you went with the Druid, you could even go with Geomancer...

 

[Theroc]

I love the concept, and agree that the PrCl is just a bit too wonky, even for me. I'm not usually MAD averse, but this one? WHEW!

So, at the risk of venturing into "bad optimizer" territory...

Were I designing a PC based on the concept, I'd probably concentrate on either Ranger or Druid as the "nature" class, and Specialist Conjuror (Focused Specialist?) for the arcane side of things, loading up on the conjuration Reserve Feats, maybe even some of the Conjuration alternative class features. (Obviously dependent upon what is available.) If you went with the Druid, you could even go with Geomancer...

I'd totally go for a Geomancer, except Complete Divine is not allowed. And Reserve Feats are out, because Complete Mage is not allowed.

The allowed sources on LEW are only the things that are currently in the thread I linked.

Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate the responses, and Danny, seeing you agree that it's too MAD and Wonky makes me feel less like a "Dirty munchkin" when changing gears, since you definitely seem to play a lot of 'out there' concepts.

I think I will attempt to propose a streamlining/update to the Learner PrC(particularly if no one there has one) to try and make the PrC less crazy.

Failing that, I'll likely just try out a straight wizard who is fascinated by monsters(and therefore summons them for additional study)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'd totally go for a Geomancer, except Complete Divine is not allowed. And Reserve Feats are out, because Complete Mage is not allowed.

Yeah, yeah, I know...I was just thinking of it as a concept in general. (Sorry I wasn't clear on that.)

Thanks for the advice though, I appreciate the responses, and Danny, seeing you agree that it's too MAD and Wonky makes me feel less like a "Dirty munchkin" when changing gears, since you definitely seem to play a lot of 'out there' concepts.

I don't know how to take that!

Failing that, I'll likely just try out a straight wizard who is fascinated by monsters(and therefore summons them for additional study)

I'd still go for the Conjurer at the very least, possibly multiclassing as Conj/Druid/MT, Conj/Rgr/Paragon, Conj/Rgr/EK, Conj/Paragon/Loremaster or Conj/Paragon/Horizon Walker. There are several statistical analyses out there- like the Powergamer's guide- that say that the Specialist really does have an advantage in a restricted environment such as the one you're describing. And the multiclass options either emphasize the rugged, outdoorsy nature of the PC concept or the strength of the PC's thirst for knowledge.

While a lot of people would play a Human for the extra feat, I'd strongly consider playing another race.

Play an Elf and you'll have the benefit of slightly better weaponry to defend yourself if your critters aren't getting the job done. Dex should be your next highest stat so that you get the AC bonus, the initiative bonus and you can use your bow to defend yourself at range.

One thing I was unclear on- your link lets us know about the Necromancer Variant that appears in the SRD...but its an altered version of it. What about the other variants? Are they open? If so, you might want to take a look at the SRD Conjurer variants.

 

[Theroc]

One thing I was unclear on- your link lets us know about the Necromancer Variant that appears in the SRD...but its an altered version of it. What about the other variants? Are they open? If so, you might want to take a look at the SRD Conjurer variants.

None of the other variants are as of yet approved, I did propose the Rapid Summoning variant of the Conjuror which replaces a familiar. The idea of losing experience if it gets hit(and it strikes me as fragile) makes me paranoid about even having one, so I figured I'd replace it with quicker summoning.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Having been through exactly that, I was thinking the same substitution would be a good idea.