Consensus Poll - Pantheons

[Arnwyn]

Uh... "powerful"?

 

[Psion]

I agree. "Powerful?" Just what are you looking for?

Personally, I prefer more than nine because I think there are more than nine archetypes and alignment in not the most functional archetype to base divinities around. Even Scarred lands, which has nine major deities, has other minor deities.

 

[Li Shenron]

Uh... "powerful"?

I don't think he means in the same way as player's stuff (or monster's stuff) is. I just think he wants to know how's the image of such a pantheon in the player's view, or the character's view.

IMHO if there were thousands of gods and demigods it could be at least most common for a character to believe for example that he can challenge some of them or even become one of them. If there's only one god, no way!

 

[Tonguez]

I've always thought of working with 5 "Forces" on each of Good, Law, Evil, Chaos, and Neutrality. These forces are not "Gods" per say but the interaction of these forces has created any number of deities. There is no one ruleing deity they rely on thier worshipers to make them powerful. That explains war and dewath. the deities are competing for the mortals attention.

OOC: Maybe I should sleep before I type. LOL

I agree with Argent - Good Evil Law Chaos and Balance is the way to go for your campaign the 5 Ruling Forces of the Universe then give them Elemental Correspondencies too

Earth - Law
Aer - Good
Fire - Evil
Water - Chaos
Qunitessence - Balance

 

[Khaalis]

I don't think he means in the same way as player's stuff (or monster's stuff) is. I just think he wants to know how's the image of such a pantheon in the player's view, or the character's view.

This is correct. I was trying to seek a personal opinion on the "perceived" difference in power between the ideas of the two Sample Pantheons.

The idea I have, as I said earlier is of a world where thousands of years ago, the Old Gods, the founders and creators of the world and its races, became complacent and lazy in their dealings with mortals, thus slowly losing followers to the New Gods - a diverse group of specialist deities of lesser power (but more able to fill worshiper niches such as the FR pantheon) that came into existence as the Old Ones lost power.

I am not sure what the Old Ones will be, but the 9 Alignments was just one idea. I was actually leaning toward 9 Old Ones, broken down as (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Balance, Earth, Fire, Water, Air), but this is still very lose and will likely change.

In any event the idea is that in the world, the New Agers are limited power deities only gaining their power from a limited number of followers directly linked to their portfolios. Whereas the Old Ones are more broad in their worshiper base and can draw power from a wider base thus being more powerful and more easily able to maintain their power). Also being the creators of the world they are still possessed of great power even in their faded states, while the fledgling deities merely siphoned off some of that power when they came into existence and are maintained by their followers.

This uses the premise of design that there is limited Godly power in the cosmology but one where the Deities cannot fight for power (or die) outright like has been done in FR and Greyhawk. The Old Ones consisted of all the power in the cosmology. As they weakened, they allowed some of this energy to siphon off, thus giving the energy to birth the New Agers from the need of the mortals. However, since there are so many New Agers they are very limited in power as there is only so much divine power to go around.

As a very simplistic mathematical example:
Say the 9 Old Ones held 9000 units of Divine Power (1000) each. As they weakened they each lost 400 units of divine power, thus creating a pool of 3600 units of divine power and lowering themselves to 600 units each. Now say there are 20 New Agers dividing up that 3600 units (thus gaining 180 each).

This is an overly simplistic example but you get the point.

Now bring the campaign to current time. The Old Ones have regrouped and realized their shortcoming and how to fix it. They have returned and are offering mortals more power in return for servitude and worship. The fait of the world’s cosmology will be in the hands of the mortals. Will the world revert to Old One worship, Allow the New Agers to become more powerful or strike a balance between the 2. In the campaign, New Agers grant power through Clerics and Holy Warriors. The Old Ones grant power through classes such as Avatars (Green Ronin), Mystics (DL), Druids, and other powerful classes, etc.

It will provide for a Cosmology rich world where Cosmic struggles will be a prime source of adventure. This is only one aspect of the World’s dynamic but a strong one.

Thanks all for the comments and thoughts. If this helps to clarify things, more comments would be greatly appreviated.

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

Now bring the campaign to current time. The Old Ones have regrouped and realized their shortcoming and how to fix it. They have returned and are offering mortals more power in return for servitude and worship. The fait of the world’s cosmology will be in the hands of the mortals. Will the world revert to Old One worship, Allow the New Agers to become more powerful or strike a balance between the 2. In the campaign, New Agers grant power through Clerics and Holy Warriors. The Old Ones grant power through classes such as Avatars (Green Ronin), Mystics (DL), Druids, and other powerful classes, etc.

You need to figure out the other side of the equation. What do the "New Agers" have to offer mortals that the Old Ones can't?

That is, besides crystal power and aromatherapy?

 

[Khaalis]

You need to figure out the other side of the equation. What do the "New Agers" have to offer mortals that the Old Ones can't?

That is, besides crystal power and aromatherapy?

Well that is the queston that the mortals have to answer.

The Old Ones do not favor organized churches, strict dogma, hierarchical and beaurocratic clergy - they offer powers through the more "Abstract" of divine classes: Druids, Shamans, Avatars, Mystics, etc. Those that seek divine power without the formalized structure of the mortal church would prefer the offerings of the old ones.

The New gods offer their power through Clerics, Priests, Holy-Warriors but also support the highly structures mortal concept of "Church" (similar to the Roman Catholic Church). Their powers are more focused to a specific portfolio thus they are more limited in their scope, however they fit the need of most humanity better. Humanity has a way of wanting to specialize their focus. This aspect would draw people the new gods.

This is the nature of the conflict. In a world where the gods cannot destroy one another and their power is solely based on the worship - they have to be directly involved and consious of what they offer their worshipers. The "gods war" will be fought by the mortals.

Does this make sense?

 

[Tonguez]

Well that is the queston that the mortals have to answer.

The Old Ones do not favor organized churches, strict dogma, hierarchical and beaurocratic clergy - they offer powers through the more "Abstract" of divine classes: Druids, Shamans, Avatars, Mystics, etc. Those that seek divine power without the formalized structure of the mortal church would prefer the offerings of the old ones.

The New gods offer their power through Clerics, Priests, Holy-Warriors but also support the highly structures mortal concept of "Church" (similar to the Roman Catholic Church). Their powers are more focused to a specific portfolio thus they are more limited in their scope, however they fit the need of most humanity better. Humanity has a way of wanting to specialize their focus. This aspect would draw people the new gods.

This is the nature of the conflict. In a world where the gods cannot destroy one another and their power is solely based on the worship - they have to be directly involved and consious of what they offer their worshipers. The "gods war" will be fought by the mortals.

Does this make sense?

Perfectly - and this is where the players screw it all up

Adventurers by their very nature (they are independent, non-conformist) are going to favour the Old gods which means that the New gods and their Church hierarchies are going to be the domain of the DM - unless you can offer the Players some kind of incentive for sticking with the New gods (which I think is what Tarrasque Wrangler was alluding to)

Perhaps the Church provides the individual PC cleric more influence over the common folk and more regulaity and security. Perhaps it gives bonus feats, skills, items, PrCs that the unstructured Old gods can't

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I'm just going to throw some ideas out there, based on what you've posted Khaalis.

I would take the organized aspect of the new gods a step further and make them part of one church, something like the Unification Church in Dragonstar. Emphasize that while these gods are weaker, they have found strength through cooperation

Then make the Old Ones the exact opposite. For millennia they have engaged in in-fighting and proxy wars with their mortal followers, which has led to their current state of degeneration. While they have "rediscovered" their mortal allies and fear the threat of the new gods, they are still too bitterly opposed to each other to stand together.

This not only sets up some intrigue between the two pantheons, but also between the Old Ones themselves. Will they band together? Will they break ranks, some supporting the new gods and others holding to the old ways? It could go a bunch of different ways, and your PCs could be right in the thick of it. Even if they don't want in on the religious intrigue, the religious wars this scenario could potentially create would make an exciting backdrop for your campaign.

 

[Perun]

I agree with Argent - Good Evil Law Chaos and Balance is the way to go for your campaign the 5 Ruling Forces of the Universe then give them Elemental Correspondencies too

Earth - Law
Aer - Good
Fire - Evil
Water - Chaos
Qunitessence - Balance

Hm, I think I'd switch Air and Water. Air feels more chaotic to me, and water is often associated with healing and nurturing, which can more closely be associated with good. Also, if you take the traditional elemental view of D&D, then you'd have Law and Chaos adjacent to each other (same with the Good and Evil). If you associate Air with Chaos oand Water with Good, then Law and Chaos and Evil and Good oppose each other.

But then you get the weird para-planes: Magma (LE), Smoke (CE), Ice (CG) and Ooze (LG!). There goes the paladin in shining armour. He's a dirty, smelly, unkept, covered in muck champion of all that is good and lawful...

How would you define Positive and Negative Energy Planes? They're traditionally more connected to the ideas of Good and Evil, respectively, than any other inner plane.

What exactly would the Quintessence be? The good old Prime Material Plane would serve the role of balance quite nicely, I believe. Also, the always-at-least-a- bit neutral druid outlook makes a great deal of sence in this scenario. They could be tweaked a bit so that the NG druid gets some kind of water-based bonus, the NE one has the affinity for fire, LN is earth-based, and the CN has some connection to air. This could be balanced by some slight vulnerability to their opposite element, and the strictly N druid gets neither the bonus, nor the penalty.

But I still like the mud-covered paladin!