Consent in Gaming - Free Guidebook

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I need to take a step back from this, this BS is setting me off.
This is probably the most offensive thing I've read in this thread. The idea that we should avoid any helpful tool for people struggling with a real illness because they can exploit it.... It's honestly making my blood boil. I get that you've had bad experiences in the past, and I'm never going to argue that mental health is ever an excuse for bad behavior, but you don't get to pass that judgment on to everybody else going through those same struggles. I've already covered the "but bad actors!" slippery slope nonsense, but to attach it specifically to mental illness is truly beyond the pale.

I am not saying everyone will use it that way. I am saying the potential for misuse is there and I think given how we talk about this issue in the gaming community, it is much more likely to be exploited that way. And I am saying you always need to preserve the ability to push back against peoples concepts and ideas.

Dude. C'mon. Don't go there.

And I will say again, this is a free guide. It's a good thing for the community.

If you don't have anything positive to contribute, then you should ask yourself what you are really up to. Because I'm seeing a lot of FUD, but I'm not seeing you put forth any proposals to help tables deal with these issues.

If people find use it in great. All I was saying here is I don't want to use it, and this is my reason why. I don't have an issue with them making the guide. But I do think we are allowed to express criticisms of it.
 

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I suppose you get to disagree with the truth all you want, but it doesn't make you any less ignorant

You don't have a monopoly on the truth through. We are talking about different perspectives here. And I am absolutely going to read what people have to say. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them (even if they express their views in a compelling way).
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Nope. There is not broad agreement that a person who feels uncomfortable should walk away. If that's your choice as someone bringing a consent issue to a group, cool. You manage your boundaries your way. But others would really like to stay, and are asking for help to do that. Your position is that "no" is a perfectly acceptable answer, for reasons. I argue that it isn't, for reasons. (I suspect that each of us harbours conditional "maybes," rather than binary responses.) This doc as presented, I think, leans toward my position, as it wants very much for people to get together and play, and proposes ways to do so, but it also clearly states that leaving is an option, and also leaves room for compromise.

No one I've seen has claimed racism. Intolerance? Kinda depends on whether the default answer is "not at my table," and why, but yeah, there's been that, as recently as a dozen posts ago. Alt-right? That was banned, though some arguments have still used talking points or tools. Moral equivalencies are your own.

No one has advocated treating all requests as reasonable.



Nope. I haven't seen one person "defending the doc" saying one person gets to direct a group. Certainly not me. Certainly not the doc. And "monstrous" is your word.

A conscious choice to exclude a potential player because their consent issue runs afoul of your game - regardless of stripe - is not inclusive. An unwillingness to consider alternatives is not inclusive. A mutually arrived-at decision that the game won't be a good fit is aces. Is it unreasonable for a person to ask you to drop your game in favor of one that suits them? Not necessarily, but quite possibly, maybe probably. To insist on it? I'd say definitely (other mileage may vary). But to decide for yourself, in your head, that there is more value in your game as it exists at that moment than in that person being there to play it with you, I just don't have a positive way to spin it. That isn't strictly about social gaming "fun" anymore.

But the doc isn't just about potential players, it's about existing ones. When someone in your (anyone's) group develops, learns, or reveals an intense phobia, trauma, etc. over a game element being introduced (or planned for next time) and drops an X-card, are you going to tell your long-time group member to leave? Will you expect them to bow out on their own because it would inconvenience friends? If you're willing to change your game for someone you know, but not someone you barely know or don't know, then your sticking point really isn't consent issues or practices raised in this doc. And if you really expect a long-time member to leave because the rest of the group would really like to fight spiders, it's clear which is valued more, and no guidebook can address that.

Comparing a child's phobia but willingness to pretend to an adult's trauma or PTSD shows how great the gulf in understanding and lack of empathy are.

And someone walking away from your table for your benefit is not the same as someone being told they're not welcome due to an inconvenient personal problem.

This is all being approached as a zero-sum game, nuke from orbit stuff. Their fun or my fun. It doesn't need to be. The claims that this doc gives a single player the ability to kill or direct a game, or group, just aren't supported. And no one is advocating that. The doc doesn't advocate that, or any one approach at all, but only tries to ensure that everyone at the table is willing and able to handle a player who needs this [X] thing not happen. The take that this must end games, end fun, that this is tyrannical, is just so off the mark it boggles the mind. And that some insist that the fairest and most considerate and respectful thing for their own "fun" is for the person traumatized to bow out, is just as mind-blowing.

The counter-inclusive argument (not the criticism of this doc's approaches or application) seems grounded in (and these are my words here), "I have a right to my fun the way I want to have it, and anyone who wants to change that is the problem. I'm the real victim here." There's a kernel of truth in there that we can all here probably get behind. We want our game. But that's not what's at stake, and framing it that way is one of the things impeding inclusivity. If a person's fun in the game is derived entirely or almost entirely from the in-game content, such that changes to that content are anathema, there is a different discussion worth having elsewhere, and is hardly a defense against respecting an X-card.

No single approach or tool will meet every situation or sit well with every gamer. We can have more than one. At-home groups of friends will have a different social contract than strangers at a con, and different needs. Not everyone in the X-card rainbow will have the same requests or need the same help. Still, we can make this happen. But to just expect people with content issues to "sit this one out" instead of figuring out how to broaden our own games is the opposite of inclusivity, and to defend that choice as "but it's not fair to me, I really like [X]" or "but their trauma isn't real harm" or "they can play some other game?" The problem isn't in the doc, but in the community.
Has anyone said “I’m the real victim here”? Just as nobody has said “one person directs the group” nobody is really saying they’re the “real” victim.

Nobody “against the doc” is anti-inclusive. And nobody for the doc is demanding full editorial control over content. The conversation, for this whole thing to succeed, has to treat the grievances, problems, and fears of all parties as fundamentally legit concerns (even if some are phrased in a spiky way, like calling folks haters or whatever).

I agree though, that some in the community do have a problem and that the doc addresses it. Ham-handedly, perhaps. I believe the proper response isn’t to drop the doc in the trash though, but to take it as an opening “offer” and make a counter-proposal. Communicate more. The doc is a good start, not a final edict. And if we all proceed like that, I think we go a long way toward addressing the problem within the community.
 

S'mon

Legend
And I don't think you understand physical trauma. I get that PTSD can prompt actual physical reactions. I had horrifying physical reactions to mine. I completely understand what it is. But I also know it is different from having my arm chopped off. And I am not dismissing it. But I am saying it is also a spectrum, and it shouldn't be equated with real physical violence.

Well 'real physical violence' is a gradient too - it can be stuff like that young punk who took a swing at me on the high street one time as I walked home from work - after I blocked his blow with my arm, he and his mate cycled off in panic. I felt quite chuffed at my successful act of self defence. That was a lot less traumatic than 5 year old S'mon being called a 'twerp' by his own mother!
 

So given that there can be issues with public play (which I think we are familiar with), and issues with broaching sensitive subjects in a tactful and respectful manner, and given that we would be looking for a solution for tables that did not currently have one (in other words, something that could be disseminated and used by multiple people, sort of like guidelines or a checklist) ...

How would you suggest approaching the issue, other than "Not this."

I don't know that this is as big a problem as people think, or one that we really need to solve especially. I think most game groups are just fine. Or if they have issues, they can work them out in conversation.

That said, I think people need to find groups that fit their sensibilities. It is about navigating what groups is going to be comfortable for you. And people have to be willing to walk away if they are uncomfortable. Generally talking things through a bit at the start of a campaign is a good idea. But ultimately I think if you have a trigger, you need to be the one to bring that up. I don't think it is the groups' responsibility to solve that for you. I think they should be compassionate and not make you feel weird about it. But they are not under an obligation to adjust the game for you. We all have our issues. I do think when it comes to public play things are different. But I don't go conventions or play in public games, so I can't comment on the best way to handle that. And obviously if you are talking about gamers who are still kids things are different. I am just not going to deal with an itemized checklist as a GM. If you want to have a conversation with me, or deal with it in email that is fine. But this form is so formal, and I think would also prompt people to put down lines where they otherwise wouldn't (just like I sometimes check off "dizzy" on those symptoms forms at the doctor's office even though I am not especially dizzy). So I personally just wouldn't use it.
 

Wolfpack48

Adventurer
It sounds like the crux of the misunderstanding is the conflation of a person with distress having ownership over their boundaries with somehow being able direct/veto the larger game. Can someone point me to the place in the document where it says a person experiencing distress can take over the game?
 


Bawylie

A very OK person
It sounds like the crux of the misunderstanding is the conflation of a person with distress having ownership over their boundaries with somehow being able direct/veto the larger game. Can someone point me to the place in the document where it says a person experiencing distress can take over the game?
Nobody can.

Does that mean it can’t be a serious concern? An unintended consequence? That it shouldn’t be something we address head-on? I think it deserves more than “Well, it doesn’t SAY that, so...”

There’s no monster under my daughter’s bed, either. There can’t be! But we’re gonna at least look, right?
 

Wolfpack48

Adventurer
Nobody can.

Does that mean it can’t be a serious concern? An unintended consequence? That it shouldn’t be something we address head-on? I think it deserves more than “Well, it doesn’t SAY that, so...”

There’s no monster under my daughter’s bed, either. There can’t be! But we’re gonna at least look, right?

I suppose, but I think what the doc is saying is let’s respect that person’s distress at face value rather than second guess them or get defensive about our own pet campaigns. Are we really that worried about Munchausen Syndrome? Would that not be an extreme edge case that would eventually come out anyway? The argument feels like a red herring to me.
 
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