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Consequence and Reward in RPGs

I like to compare trends in the game industry as a whole with individual segments, such as RPGs. Often what’s happening “out there” will turn up in the individual segments, if it hasn’t already.


I like to compare trends in the game industry as a whole with individual segments, such as RPGs. Often what’s happening “out there” will turn up in the individual segments, if it hasn’t already.



The most striking trends in hobby games is the movement from games of consequence to games of reward. Players in hobby games in the past have been expected to earn what they received, but more and more in hobby games we’re seeing games that reward players for participation. This is a general trend in our society, where schoolkids expect rewards for participation rather than for achieving excellence, and in fact excellence is sometimes not allowed!

Reward-based games have always been with us via party games, and to a lesser extent family games. Virtually no one cares who wins a party game, and all of these games tend to be very simple and fully accessible to non-gamers. Mass-market games are much more reward-based then consequence-based. Hobby gamers might call them “not serious”.

A reward-based game is more like a playground than an organized competition, and the opposition in reward-based games tends to be weak/inconsequential/nonexistent.

Home video “save games” have always tended to make video games a “you can’t lose” proposition. We’re moving beyond that.

With free-to-play video games dominating the mobile market and a strong influence in other markets, designers reward players so that they’ll play the game long enough to decide to spend money in it. We see players who blame the game if they fail, who expect to be led around by the hand, even in games that people purchase.

Tabletop RPGs generally involve an unspoken pact between the players and the GM, so that the players can have fun and not have to worry too much about losing. But the game tends to be more enjoyable when there’s a possibility of failure - the triumphs are sweeter. The co-creator of D&D (Gary Gygax) put it this way in one of his last publications (Hall of Many Panes) "...a good campaign must have an element of danger and real risk or else it is meaningless - death walks at the shoulder of all adventurers, and that is the true appeal of the game."

Classic games involve conflict. Many so-called games nowadays do not involve conflict, and there are role-playing "games" that are storytelling exercises without much opposition.

Reflections of this trend in RPGs often involve abundant healing and ways to save characters from death, such as the ridiculous Revivify spell, usable by a mere fifth level cleric in D&D Fifth Edition, that brings back the dead on the field of battle.

35 years ago, a young player GMed his first game for our shared-characters campaign. He really wanted to ensure the players had a good time - so he gave out lots of magic items. We wanted players to earn what they received, so myself and the other lead GM waved our hands after the adventure and most of those items disappeared.

I’m a senior citizen, in my roots a wargamer, and I prefer games of consequence. But that's not where the world is headed.

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So "usually" the party will find plate mail, but the CR system is broken because it doesn't handle the case of 4 wizards or 4 fighters. Right.

So you really think 4 fighters is equal to 4 wizards? Wow. Nice!

When A4 says "An adventure for character levels 4-7", does that mean all parties of levels 4 through 7? CR means the exact same thing, just on a smaller scale. It's a tool to give a DM some direction, not constrain them or let them ignore the real properties of the party. Even as a tool for XP, there's no change from other editions; for certain parties, certain monsters will be trivial XP or incredibly hard XP.
Correct, and 4-7th level fails to work properly for all level 4-7 groups. Some combinations of 4th level groups will find it too hard. Some combinations of level 6 and 7 groups will cakewalk through it. It's not quite as borked at CR, but is is borked.
 

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Hussar

Legend
So you really think 4 fighters is equal to 4 wizards? Wow. Nice!

Correct, and 4-7th level fails to work properly for all level 4-7 groups. Some combinations of 4th level groups will find it too hard. Some combinations of level 6 and 7 groups will cakewalk through it. It's not quite as borked at CR, but is is borked.

But, you're ignoring the actual definition of CR which is 4 PC's, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue. Yuppers, when you ignore the baseline presumptions, the system doesn't work as well. That's pretty obvious on its face. This is the same in any edition. My very first group of Basic D&D characters was five Magic Users. They died. Quickly. As in we didn't even complete a single session with that group, let alone level or anything else. :D ((Eaten by stirges as I recall)) Does that mean that game balance is borked? Nope, it means that we created a party with some pretty obvious weaknesses, did nothing to shore up those weaknesses and resulted in a TPK. I.e. the system perfectly predicted what would happen.

Same as your 4 fighter or 4 wizard groups. The system TELLS you that this group is not balanced and will have some serious problems. Sure, that 4 wizard group at high levels will be death on toast. Until they run into an area of effect spell that deals serious damage. Then they all die.

It's pretty obvious on the face of it that if you ignore all the baseline assumptions, that are clearly stated beforehand, any predictive model will fail. What's your point?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But, you're ignoring the actual definition of CR which is 4 PC's, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue. Yuppers, when you ignore the baseline presumptions, the system doesn't work as well.

This is the direct quote.

"Challenge Rating

This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty."

There is absolutely nothing about specific class mix in there. Stop fabricating things.
 

Hussar

Legend
This is the direct quote.

"Challenge Rating

This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty."

There is absolutely nothing about specific class mix in there. Stop fabricating things.

Ok. So the entire notion of a baseline party is a complete fabrication. Sure. You win. :uhoh:
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ok. So the entire notion of a baseline party is a complete fabrication. Sure. You win. :uhoh:

Challenge Rating is specifically 4 PCs. It doesn't care about party composition and goes out of its way to talk about classes in general. It's built for 4 PCs of that level. Period. That's what it says.

Any idea of specific class composition of a party with regard to CR is your invention.
 

Hussar

Legend
Challenge Rating is specifically 4 PCs. It doesn't care about party composition and goes out of its way to talk about classes in general. It's built for 4 PCs of that level. Period. That's what it says.

Any idea of specific class composition of a party with regard to CR is your invention.

Hey, I said you were right. The CR system obviously did not work for you and just as obviously, that's because the system is flawed.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
This is the direct quote.

"Challenge Rating

This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty."

There is absolutely nothing about specific class mix in there. Stop fabricating things.


He's not. You just need to read beyond a few isolated one liners. Note page 50 of the 3.5 DMG. There are a number of factors listed that will tend to make encounters more difficult - lack of wizards, rogues, clerics, and fighter-types are all noted. By implication, the default CR is based on a well-rounded party that includes a cleric, wizard, fighter, and rogue (or their reasonable equivalents).
 

pemerton

Legend
Your chess-backgammon analogy holds up when comparing D&D with CoC or T&T or whatever other system you like. They're different games that happen to be RPGs. And that's fine.

But it utterly fails when comparing Basic to 4e, because at that point (despite what some might think) you're comparing D&D with D&D. In that light, I should be able to take my Basic or 1e premises and procedures and port them forward to any subsequent editon, because at least in theory it's the same bloody game.
I don't know what you think the force of the "should" is, or where that force comes from.

I'm just reporting the facts. If you try and use the Moldvay Basic mechanics to play a 4e-style game it will suck. And vice versa. You might think this is an unhappy fact, but it's a fact.

WOTC owns the name D&D, and like Coca-Cola, Superman, and Microsoft Windows, there will be variations between versions and over time that you may not like and that aren't compatible with the way you want to do things.
Trade marking, variations etc is certainly part of it.

But let's just look at some basics: who would look at a game with point-buy stats, intricate PC builds, XP primarily as a pacing device and certainly not something that has to be earned through clever play, and a skill system that feeds into a skill challenge resolution framework - just to pick some salient features of 4e - and think that it would deliver anything like the same experience as Moldvay Basic does? The only way that could be possible would be if Moldvay Basic did a really bad job of delivering classic dungeoncrawling play - which obviously it doesn't!
 

Hussar

Legend
He's not. You just need to read beyond a few isolated one liners. Note page 50 of the 3.5 DMG. There are a number of factors listed that will tend to make encounters more difficult - lack of wizards, rogues, clerics, and fighter-types are all noted. By implication, the default CR is based on a well-rounded party that includes a cleric, wizard, fighter, and rogue (or their reasonable equivalents).

Shhhhh. I know and you know. Let's just leave it at that. Cherry picking quotes to give you the right answer is the best way to win an Internet discussion after all.
 

Hussar

Legend
/snip

But let's just look at some basics: who would look at a game with point-buy stats, intricate PC builds, XP primarily as a pacing device and certainly not something that has to be earned through clever play, and a skill system that feeds into a skill challenge resolution framework - just to pick some salient features of 4e - and think that it would deliver anything like the same experience as Moldvay Basic does? The only way that could be possible would be if Moldvay Basic did a really bad job of delivering classic dungeoncrawling play - which obviously it doesn't!

And, let's be fair, this is true for EVERY edition of D&D. 3e plays quite differently than 1e. It has to. It's a much more intricate game with a whole lot more bells and whistles. In the days before skills, the experience at the table of trying to find a secret door was very, very different than afterwards. 3e, in many ways, is a reaction to the issue of pixel-bitching that could be (not had to be, but could be) a problem in earlier edition play. Instead of the players trying to "outthink" the DM, you simply roll your die and find that trap.

Never minding the vast gulf between how 2e presented the game and how 1e presents the game. 2e is far, far more story focused and centered around what was considered role playing of the time. 1e is much more heavily grounded in more traditional style games where you have pretty clear win/loss conditions. Although, to be fair, that line is awfully blurry.

But, even though 1e and 2e were mostly compatible, 2e characters were FAR more powerful than their 1e counterparts. To the point where you could run 1e modules a couple of levels higher for a 2e group. If the module said for levels 5-7, a 4th level 2e group could likely succeed.

While there are obvious points of shared DNA between editions, they ARE different games. Heck, I always point to the character sheet. Hand a 2e player a 3e character sheet and he won't even know what it is. Nothing will make sense. Hand that same 2e player a 4e character sheet and he's even more out to sea. Even a 5e character isn't really anything like a 1e character. Again, sure, there are shared elements, but, let's be honest here, these are not the same games.
 

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