Continuing beyond Healing Surges

[CapnZapp]

In a way, yes. The quick'n'dirty version of this rule would read

* you can go negative on your Healing Surges. Whenever at negative surges, you're Fatigued.
* if you reach -5 surges, you're Exhausted.

Simple neh?

The reason to talk about fatigue points is that I dislike having a concept of "negative surges", and doesn't much like the concept of surges at all. Pure personal preference.

Just adding more surges sure is simple, but it has problems:

My problem is that if one PC runs away in surge use, the whole group is penalized, losing out on their relatively better resource management. If you say "you get -2" instead of "you all must rest" the penalty is shifted onto the erring player without taking away the fact the rest of the group has behaved, saving up on their resources: they can still continue, collecting milestones and such.

Once most or everybody is at -2, I expect groups to rest. Having one member at -2 is manageable. Having the entire group effectively two levels lower is not.

Just adding more surges accomplishes nothing of this. If one PC runs out of surges, the others can't say "oh well, let's continue anyway" because with no surges, you effectively can't be healed. That makes a character a lot more worthless than if he's at -2.

Sure, more surges allow you to fight longer or more intensely. But also more recklessly. The whole point of my rule is to discourage the "I might as well throw myself into the center of the ring, killing as much as I'm able. Sure I'll lose all my surges, but then we'll just rest up. Those other guys who play cautiously will just have to lose out on the fun!" thinking, fostered by the core rule.

Hope I was able to explain the difference...

 

[Zelc]

That is a good point. So how about add X surges, and when you have X surges or less left, you take a -2 penalty to attacks?

 

[77IM]

So I was thinking about the issue some more from a high level and have another idea.

Let us assume that surges are a resource that is meant to be used. Let us further assume that surges are meant to be replenished at the same rate that they are used. The "interesting decision" comes about because the player can choose when to spend a surge (second wind, healing word, etc.) but not when surges replenish (you need to kill all the monsters and then find a safe place to rest -- not a guaranteed possibility).

Here are two house rules based on this premise, provided to spark discussion.

1.
Let us assume that PCs are expected to use up 1/3 of their surges per fight -- more for a hard fight, less for an easy fight. After every encounter, during a short rest, each PC rolls 1d6 per spent surge. On a roll of 5 or 6, they get that surge back. (You can just roll a big pool of d6s, one per spend surge, and count the 5s and 6s.) You can also make this roll during an extended rest (you don't automatically regain all surges during an extended rest).

Effect: As you complete encounters, your surges decrease gradually (since you get some back after every fight -- you might get them all back if you are lucky). Even if you blow through ALL of your surges, you are likely to get back 1/3 of them, which leaves you ready for the next fight. Unless it's a very difficult fight that requires more than 1/3 of your surges; this provides incentive to conserve surges, as an easy fight (or non-combat encounter) might actually earn you surges. Also, extended rest has been reduced in importance since it is no more beneficial (surge-wise) than a non-combat encounter.

2.
Assume that the PCs are meant to spend 1/4 of their surges per fight. This house Rule #2 is the same as #1 above, except that you roll 1d6 per REMAINING surge, and recover a surge per 5 or 6 result. (If you have no surges, you get one back automatically, without rolling.)

Effect: This version rewards players who conserve surges. If you play smart and only spend at most 1/4 of your surges per fight, you are likely to be at full surges indefinitely. OTOH, if you get low on surges, it takes longer to get back up to full (possibly multiple extended rests).


-- 77IM

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

Here's a fairly simple one I just thought of:

If you have no healing surges any time you receive an effect that would let you spend a healing surge to heal, you instead gain Temporary Hit Points equal to 1/2 your healing surge value.

Allows the party leaders to still help keep a healing surge-less party member up, but not as effectively. I'm not sure how long Temporary Hit Points are defined to last (is it just until the end of an encounter?)... but depending on how it is defined, there might be some odd'ness with short rests...

Haven't really thought what other implications/interactions there would be, the idea just came to mind for some reason.

Edit: Reading through the thread, I kinda like the idea of a "moderate rest" between short and extended... will have to think about it more later.

 

[Zelc]

1.
Let us assume that PCs are expected to use up 1/3 of their surges per fight -- more for a hard fight, less for an easy fight. After every encounter, during a short rest, each PC rolls 1d6 per spent surge. On a roll of 5 or 6, they get that surge back.

There are three problems with this. First, clumping occurs over the short run. So someone who relies on this and uses up too many surges may suddenly find that they recovered no surges and be too weak to carry on.

Second, this doesn't result in the steady state or even a gradual decrease even on the expected rolls. Basically it's a 33% discount on healing surges, not recovering 33% of your total healing surges every encounter. If you use up three healing surges, you're expected to get 1 back. A character with 9 healing surges that uses 3 per encounter will on average last an extra encounter, but that's it.

Third and most importantly, this requires players to keep track of how many surges they used in a specific encounter, which is a pain in the butt.

2.
Assume that the PCs are meant to spend 1/4 of their surges per fight. This house Rule #2 is the same as #1 above, except that you roll 1d6 per REMAINING surge, and recover a surge per 5 or 6 result. (If you have no surges, you get one back automatically, without rolling.)

There are problems with this too. Suppose your characters will face 4 encounters of varying difficulty during the day. If they face the hardest ones first (and spend more healing surges), they'll be worse off than if they face the hardest ones last. This adds another layer of complexity to encounter design.


Easier solution: Characters regain 1 healing surge at the end of each encounter. Call it the thrill of victory, or whatever. Similar results, more consistency. Nor will this allow them to carry on forever; every character having only 1 or 2 healing surges probably isn't going to last too long in a fight.

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree with Zelc - having the rule not involve luck or dice (whatever the rule) is probably best.

(I don't think the admin problems would be so big; my argument is instead that it would suck to be forced to rest just because of a string of bad luck)

 

[inkpenavenger]

How about this: Give the PCs a free healing surge when they reach a milestone.

 

[CapnZapp]

Way ahead of you!

§8 Reaching a milestone removes one Fatigue Point.

 

[inkpenavenger]

I just don't understand why you are insisting on making things more complicated

 

[CapnZapp]

I just don't understand why you are insisting on making things more complicated

Then why are you here, in the "Fan Creations and House Rules" sub-forum...? ;-)

Seriously, read my first post again. Then, if you still have any specific questions regarding my motivations, feel free to ask them here and I'll be happy to do my best to reply.

Regards,
Zapp