D&D General Mechanic Pitch: Fatigue and Exhaustion

[Xeviat]

There are times when thinking about how to implement mechanics that I find myself thinking "gee, it would really make sense to hand out exhaustion here", but then having to go back on it because it's such a hard condition to get rid of. I do like the new exhaustion, just being stacking -1 penalties to all d20s, that penalty isn't insurmountable, but only healing one exhaustion per night's rest doesn't quite work. I used to be a runner, and I know I've recovered from feeling exhausted after a bit of a breather. What's a 15 minute break for at work anyway?

Then I remembered 3E; we had some conditions that were advancements of each other. Fatigue progressed to Exhaustion, Sickened progressed to Nauseated, Dazed progressed to Paralyzed, or whatever.

So, what if certain things, especially exploration activities, granted Fatigue. Fatigue has the same penalties as exhaustion, and stacks with exhaustion, but it's recovered faster. Maybe it's recovered after a short rest. Maybe you recover Con mod points of fatigue after a short rest. I don't know, I'm just conceptualizing it at this point.

Your exhaustion track could be 6 Squares on your character sheet: □□□□□□. When you suffer a level of Fatigue, you [ / ] slash out a box. When you suffer a level of Exhaustion, you [ X ] cross out a box. IF your exhaustion track is full of 6 fatigue slashes, then any further levels of fatigue are instead added as levels of exhaustion.

This would open up using fatigue for things like sprinting and forced marches, as penalties for exploration skill failures (like tiring yourself out climbing or swimming), as environmental penalties, or as ways of balancing special features like Winged Flight.

What do you think?

 

[Theory of Games]

Eh.

With B/X and BECMI, resting during exploration was factored into the slower movement rate (PCs weren't moving fast, so they weren't getting tired). I think with B/X it was the PCs had to rest 1 turn (10 minutes) for every 5-6 turns of exploration and if they didn't rest, the party suffered a -1 penalty to attacks and damage. BECMI dropped it altogether, iirc.

IMO the modern WotC version of D&D presents more super-heroic PCs, so slapping them with Fatigue penalties for simply walking around might not fit? Fatigue's never been that important a thing with any edition of D&D IME. Plus, with the disappearance of tracking encumbrance, rations and other resources from modern D&D, it kind of makes tracking fatigue 'out of place'?

But if you want it in your game and your players are cool with it, rock & roll

 

[GMMichael]

I don't see the point in levels of exhaustion when losing hit points has no effect. There should just be the condition, no levels, if anything:

Exhausted. You have Disadvantage on all checks requiring physical activity.

 

[Li Shenron]

This would open up using fatigue for things like sprinting and forced marches, as penalties for exploration skill failures (like tiring yourself out climbing or swimming), as environmental penalties, or as ways of balancing special features like Winged Flight.

What do you think?

It's an interesting proposition.

What you suggest sounds like a short-term penalty for concentrated efforts. I think you should approach it from the game design point of view, not from the perspective of trying to model reality otherwise it probably ends up being just annoying rules. Also, from a 'realism' point of view, most combat encounters (unless trivial or particularly short) would reasonably cause fatigue...

You could list a number of concentrated efforts that cause fatigue, either automatically or on an extra check, such as a Constitution check.

Then the difficult point is, what is the cost to remove the fatigue level? Is a short rest really a cost? It essentially means time, and one hour of generic rest is only a cost if the DM is running a time-sensitive adventure or situation, otherwise I don't think most PC groups would have a second thought, they would just take a short rest immediately to help the affected PCs remove their fatigue level.

Exhaustion is poorly implemented in core, but at least when it's used as a cost (Barbarian's Frenzy IIRC) it means that basically you are more vulnerable/penaltied for the rest of the day unless someone spends a resource to remove your exhaustion level. There can always be some DM who have no problem letting the PCs take a long rest anytime, but at least it breaks suspension of disbelief more easily than taking more short rests.

So if you tie fatigue to short rests, you need to think how is it going to play out in practice, for the two main types of actions which will cause it: special abilities and concentrated efforts.

A PC might have a special ability which causes fatigue (as a balancing factor for the ability being really good): they will think whether a short rest will be easily available soon after the use. If the adventure is not time-sensitive, it almost always is. But if they use the ability in combat, then at least until the end of the combat they'll suffer the penalty. So this is your balancing factor: slap fatigue on special abilities that are good in combat, not out-of-combat where a short rest can be initiated immediately, and make sure the fatigue penalty affects combat.

For this reason, concentrated efforts like sprinting won't probably matter much, unless they are done as part of an attempt at avoiding a battle, so they can be used as a "do you want to try and avoid the battle at the risk of having to fight at a penalty if you fail to avoid it?" tactical option.

Pure exploration penalties will only increase the time by adding more short rests, so once again they will matter only in time-sensitive situations.

 

[Staffan]

I think a Fatigued condition for brief heavy exertion that goes away on a time scale of minutes would be a good idea – either on a short rest, or by resting for ~10 minutes (or even better: make a short rest 10 minutes long). I don't think it's a condition that needs a stacking level, just say that if you get Fatigued while already Fatigued, you take a level of Exhaustion instead.

 

[Reynard]

I think the most important thing to consider when introducing any mechanic is what the actual intent is from a gameplay perspective, and does the mechanic actually promote that intent. So, with this system, what is the gameplay purpose of exhaustion and fatigue, and does the system produce the desired result?

@Xeviat what is your goal with implementing exhaustion? What gameplay outcome are you looking for?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think the most important thing to consider when introducing any mechanic is what the actual intent is from a gameplay perspective, and does the mechanic actually promote that intent. So, with this system, what is the gameplay purpose of exhaustion and fatigue, and does the system produce the desired result?

@Xeviat what is your goal with implementing exhaustion? What gameplay outcome are you looking for?

Excellent questions to ask.

Overall, @Xeviat , it sounds like your design goals are as follows:

1. Create a design space where penalties for exertion (hereafter, just "exertion") which are interesting and game-able, as they are not currently so (too punitive, too scary, far too difficult to remove, etc.)
2. Implement "exertion" in a way that prioritizes simplicity/elegance and portability--something almost anyone could implement at any table easily.
3. Implement "exertion" removal in a similarly simple/elegant way, so players will be willing to engage with it (rather than fleeing on sight, as they do now).
4. Develop specific applications (which need not all be simple themselves) for "exertion" so that there are rewards or benefits commensurate with its detriments.

Would you agree? If I have overstated or left out any goals you have, I welcome correction. Productive game design generally begins with really drilling down on what purpose you intend the mechanic(s) to fulfill. Point 4 above cannot be neglected, because simply inserting Fatigue without adding reasons to engage with it is liable to leave player behavior unchanged, and outright forcing it upon players may or may not get a warmer reception.

Assuming we are (or get) on the same page, I'd be happy to propose some possible directions to take this for a more engaging gameplay experience.

 

[Xeviat]

I think the most important thing to consider when introducing any mechanic is what the actual intent is from a gameplay perspective, and does the mechanic actually promote that intent. So, with this system, what is the gameplay purpose of exhaustion and fatigue, and does the system produce the desired result?

@Xeviat what is your goal with implementing exhaustion? What gameplay outcome are you looking for?

The goals are pretty much what @EzekielRaiden spelled out. "You get tired" is a good meter for exploration things. This could just be HP damage, though, as it is already a pool of points in the game and that could make exploration challenges feel painful. It would also serve as a universal mechanic to lean on for all matters of exertion. While taking a breather to reduce exhaustion levels is only "paying" with time, it creates a cost that can be felt by the players, which can add to the mood of an exploration heavy game.

A5E uses supply in a similar way. I was just thinking about other ways to do it.