Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings

[freyar]

Monstrous Humanoid for the gladiator lizards, I guess. If you want to stat up egg guy, I could see a Native Outsider. I still think he's a different species. Does that work for you?

 

[Cleon]

Monstrous Humanoid for the gladiator lizards, I guess. If you want to stat up egg guy, I could see a Native Outsider.

I'd go for Native Outsider myself.

It's a shame Enworld no longer has a Dice Roller or we could have a dodecahedron-off to decide the issue.

As mentioned earlier, Egg Guy doesn't need a complete writeup if we treat him/it as aHazard. The creature never leaves their Egg in the story.

I still think he's a different species. Does that work for you?

They both come from eggs in the same "nest" and the Lizards die if the nest's Egg Guy perishes. The two are obviously intimately connected.

 

[freyar]

Hmmmph, a dice off could perhaps be useful. I don't really like Outsider for the gladiator lizards because they don't really seem to exemplify anything.

How about a compromise? Make the lizards Monstrous Humanoid (extraplanar). Make Egg Guy a hazard of some kind, so we don't need to worry about the type. Clearly, based on the description in the story, he's summoned or magically manifested the lizards, so I think extraplanar makes sense. How's that?

Or, if we want to go really weird, we could make the gladiator lizards something like the astral figments (can't believe we did those all the way back in 2009!), so they're really generated by Egg Guy's imagination.

 

[Cleon]

Hmmmph, a dice off could perhaps be useful. I don't really like Outsider for the gladiator lizards because they don't really seem to exemplify anything.

Erm…

…they exemplify the sharp-edged stony deadliness of the Bleak Shore, while Egg Guy exemplifies its bleak and callous cruelty!

How about a compromise? Make the lizards Monstrous Humanoid (extraplanar). Make Egg Guy a hazard of some kind, so we don't need to worry about the type. Clearly, based on the description in the story, he's summoned or magically manifested the lizards, so I think extraplanar makes sense. How's that?

I don't think they should be Extraplanar, they appear to inhabit the Bleak Shore not some weird otherworldy realm.

I'm fine making Egg Guy a hazard. Presumably one with the CR of the pair of Gladiator Lizards "he" hatches.

Now does each Egg Guy have a pair of Lizards or can one Guy have multiple pairs? The most recent version of their stats gives them No. Appearing 2d4, which suggests up to four pairs. Does that mean some "nests" contain multiple Egg Guys?

I've tweaked the No. Appearing of the the Gladiator Lizard Working Draft and we should consider whether to include the Egg Guys in the Organization, something like:

Organization: Solitary, pair, brood (3–4) or nest (2–8 plus 1 to 4 egg guys*)​

*Obviously we should call them something different from Egg Guy. Currently I favour Bleak One for their name.

Or, if we want to go really weird, we could make the gladiator lizards something like the astral figments (can't believe we did those all the way back in 2009!), so they're really generated by Egg Guy's imagination.

It's been a while since I last read the story, but I think the description suggests they are corporeal creatures. From what I recall the Lizards dropped dead and left corpses when the Bleak One was killed. They didn't evaporate into ectoplasm.

 

[freyar]

Not sure that I buy "sharp-edged stony deadliness" as the sort of philosophy or elemental essence that an Outsider is supposed to be about.

Any chance I can get you to agree to make the Bleak Ones and Gladiator Lizards separate species even if related? I still think that the destruction of the lizards when Egg Guy is killed means they're not the same species but something magically summoned or created (oooh, maybe the Lizards are Constructs!). And we know Bleak ones can project their image over long distances, so they must have mental or magical powers.

 

[Cleon]

Not sure that I buy "sharp-edged stony deadliness" as the sort of philosophy or elemental essence that an Outsider is supposed to be about.

Considering some of the Native Outsider in official WotC publications I think the Egg Guy does the job.

Any chance I can get you to agree to make the Bleak Ones and Gladiator Lizards separate species even if related? I still think that the destruction of the lizards when Egg Guy is killed means they're not the same species but something magically summoned or created (oooh, maybe the Lizards are Constructs!). And we know Bleak ones can project their image over long distances, so they must have mental or magical powers.

It'd be easier just leaving their relationship mysterious. Besides "species" is a rather nebulous concept in the D&D world of insane magical hybridisation.

My head-canon is Gladiator Lizards are created by Egg Guys who somehow derives nourishment from them. It's not explicit, but there has to be some reason for a Guy to geas people to sail to the Bleak Shore and be attacked by Lizards it shares a nest with.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, and we still need to decide on a name for the Egg Guys!

It sounds like you're OK with Bleak One, so shall we use that from now on?

 

[freyar]

Bleak One is ok. But I'll probably still refer to them as Egg Guys in private.

I'd be ok with having the Egg Guy (see, there I go) as a Native Outsider. But even with your head-canon, I don't think the Lizards need to be the same type. Maybe the Bleak Ones feed on psychic pain of dying sentients, and the Gladiator Lizards are just monsters they recruit to kill people. Any chance you'd go with Monstrous Humanoid for the Lizards on that basis? I'm ok with the extraplanar subtype if you want.

 

[Cleon]

Bleak One is ok. But I'll probably still refer to them as Egg Guys in private.

I'd be ok with having the Egg Guy (see, there I go) as a Native Outsider. But even with your head-canon, I don't think the Lizards need to be the same type. Maybe the Bleak Ones feed on psychic pain of dying sentients, and the Gladiator Lizards are just monsters they recruit to kill people. Any chance you'd go with Monstrous Humanoid for the Lizards on that basis? I'm ok with the extraplanar subtype if you want.

Well I think the Lizards have a more intimate relationship with the Bleak Ones than just being some monstrous version of hirelings, since they die if their linked Bleak One perishes (that's how they get dealt with in the original story. While Fafhrd keeps two gladiator lizards bust, the Mouser finds an huge and unusual egg and smashes it open to reveal a Bleak One, who promptly dies and takes his lizards with him.)

As for the Lizard's type, I'd be OK having it different from the "Egg Guy" (assuming we don't make Eggy a hazard without a type of course).

Would prefer Magical Beast over Monstrous Humanoid though, since I'd like them to have HD and BAB like a fighter (and maybe fighter bonus feats too?).

Although we can do the latter with Monstrous Humanoid by giving them a Special Ability like the Martial Training of The General. Maybe call it Natural Fighter?

Would you accept Monstrous Humanoid and a "has full BAB and bonus feats like a fighter" SA?

 

[Cleon]

At the very least, I can update the Gladiator Lizard to be size Large!

 

[freyar]

Wait, in post 1120 you thought Magical Beast doesn't feel right! (Though that was a while ago, no fault of yours!) I think the full BAB is fine, but I don't think they probably need the bonus feats.

The defeat of the lizards on the death of Egg Guy was why I suggested they're summoned. But let's worry about that relationship later.

 

[Cleon]

Wait, in post 1120 you thought Magical Beast doesn't feel right! (Though that was a while ago, no fault of yours!)

Well not as right as Native Outsider felt to me, but you didn't like the idea!

I think the full BAB is fine, but I don't think they probably need the bonus feats.

I proposed the bonus feat idea was in the original short story they were such good combatants that Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were on the back foot throughout their fight with them. In Leiber's books, an ordinary swordsman is usually lucky if they're able to exchange blows with either of the pair before being killed, but the heroes would have lost if Mouser hadn't stumbled upon Egg Guy while Fafhrd kept the two Lizards busy (and the latter was desperately defeating while he fought them IIRC).

The defeat of the lizards on the death of Egg Guy was why I suggested they're summoned. But let's worry about that relationship later.

They didn't vanish or dissolve into the ether like a you'd expect a summoned creature to do though.

When Egg Guy died, the two gladiator lizards literally dropped dead.

To me that implies their lives were dependent on each other for some reason.

 

[freyar]

I am happy enough with Magical Beast. Let's do that.

I'm ambivalent about the bonus feats, so you can include them if you like. But I thought our two heroes were also kind of out of it and therefore not fighting as well as usual due to something about Egg Guy's influence over them.

I guess I'm not as interested in sticking quite so closely to the story's text given that the D&D monster didn't precisely either. And because Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were mentally not really together during this encounter, so the description of what happened might be a bit distorted.

 

[Cleon]

I am happy enough with Magical Beast. Let's do that.

Have updated the Gladiator Lizard as a Magical Beast.

I've pencilled in 7d10 Hit Dice and Speed 40 ft. since the original monster is 7 HD and Move 15.

From what I recall the Bleak Shore is a chilly place, so I'll also pencil in Cold Desert as the Environment.

Any preferences for the alignment? I prefer Neutral Evil like the 2E versions over the Lawful Evil of the 1E versions.

I'm ambivalent about the bonus feats, so you can include them if you like. But I thought our two heroes were also kind of out of it and therefore not fighting as well as usual due to something about Egg Guy's influence over them.

I guess I'm not as interested in sticking quite so closely to the story's text given that the D&D monster didn't precisely either. And because Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser were mentally not really together during this encounter, so the description of what happened might be a bit distorted.

Well I like the idea, so I'm doing it!

Updating the Gladiator Lizard.

They have "a single yard-long claw" at the end of each arm that's compared to a sword in the description.

Would you be game to five it a sword's increased critical threat range of 19-20 or 18-20?

 

[Cleon]

Hive Mind (Ex): Gladiator lizards hatch in broods of two to four individuals. Brood-mates within 50 miles of each other are in constant telepathic communication. If one brood-mate is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No gladiator lizard in a group of brood-mates is considered flanked unless all of them are.

You know, all the AD&D versions specify the link is only between two individuals, not an entire brood.

I think I prefer the paired version I proposed.

Hive Mind (Ex): Gladiator lizards hatch in pairs, called brood-mates. Brood-mates within 50 miles of each other are in constant telepathic communication. If one brood-mate is aware of a particular danger, both are. If one in a pair is not flat-footed, neither of them is. No gladiator lizard in a pair of brood-mates is considered flanked unless both of them are.

Hmm, tempted to rename it to differentiate the ability from standard Hive Mind:

Brood-Mate (Ex): Gladiator lizards hatch in pairs, called brood-mates. Brood-mates within 50 miles of each other are in constant telepathic communication. If one brood-mate is aware of a particular danger, both are. If one in a pair is not flat-footed, neither of them is. No gladiator lizard in a pair of brood-mates is considered flanked unless both of them are.​

Also, the 2E version gives them an advantage when teaming up against an opponent: "If both lizards strike the same target in the same round, the second lizard to strike gains +1 to hit on both its blows."

That suggests some kind of Special Attack if two Lizards engage the same opponent.

Maybe:

Brood-Mate #2 (Ex): Gladiator lizards hatch in pairs, called brood-mates. Brood-mates within 50 miles of each other are in constant telepathic communication. If one brood-mate is aware of a particular danger, both are. If one in a pair is not flat-footed, neither of them is. No gladiator lizard in a pair of brood-mates is considered flanked unless both of them are.

If both brood-mates attack the same opponent in a round, each gains a +1 circumstance bonus to their attack roll.​

 

[freyar]

The 18-20 threat range is ok if you want to go that far.

The brood-mate ability is ok. But wouldn't it be more 3.X-ish for them to sneak attack when the pair flanks someone? I mean, the circumstance bonus is fine, but I think the sneak attack comes up with other critters.