Converting First Edition Monsters

[freyar]

OK, so we have something like

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature stepping on a pungi ray or striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing and slashing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A creature that steps on a pungi ray further has its speed reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded.

Then add Impale for grappling?

 

[Cleon]

OK, so we have something like

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature stepping on a pungi ray or striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing and slashing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A creature that steps on a pungi ray further has its speed reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded.

Then add Impale for grappling?

I was thinking of breaking it up into three paragraphs. One for defence, one for offence and on for the "living caltrops" effect.

Also, I think the attack ought to do piercing only damage, like a Sting attack or the quills of our Dire Porcupine conversion.

e.g.:

Spines (Ex): Any creature striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

A creature that steps on a pungi ray will have their feet pierced by its spines, taking 1d12 points of piercing damage plus exposure to the ray's poison. In addition, the creature has its land speed reduced by one-half due to the wound. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing.

A pungi ray can also use its spines to make a grapple attack or melee attack, dealing 1d12+X piercing damage plus poison.

 

[freyar]

Shouldn't the "stepping on the pungi" damage also be 1d12+X rather than just 1d12? And is +X = Con bonus?

 

[Cleon]

Shouldn't the "stepping on the pungi" damage also be 1d12+X rather than just 1d12? And is +X = Con bonus?

Existing precedents such as a Hamatula's Barbed Defense indicate such powers usually use the Strength modifier for damage.

As for the "stepping on" bit, I omitted a bonus 'cause it's a passive attack. It's the intruder's weight pushing the spines in, not the Pungi's muscles.

 

[freyar]

Hmmmm. The hamatula's Con is the same as its Str. How do you know it's Str and not Con in that case?

 

[Cleon]

Hmmmm. The hamatula's Con is the same as its Str. How do you know it's Str and not Con in that case?

Gah... that's a good point.

Maybe we can find another creature with Barbed Defence as a precedent.

Let's see we've got the Susurrus, which has Str 21 & Con 16 plus a Barbed Defense with a ... +6 damage bonus.

There's also the Scythetail, which has Str 21 & Con 15 but has no Str modifier to its Barbed Defense.

Hmm... I guess the Sussurus's +6 could be twice its +3 Con bonus, while the Scythetail is a precedent for it not having any ability modifier at all.

 

[freyar]

Or perhaps WotC didn't always know what it was doing?

My vote is Con bonus since I think it's always a passive attack with a bonus due to the intrinsic "spiny-ness" of the spines.

 

[Cleon]

Or perhaps WotC didn't always know what it was doing?

Pshaw, next you'll be telling me they brought out some products in too much of a hurry to find all the stat errors.

My vote is Con bonus since I think it's always a passive attack with a bonus due to the intrinsic "spiny-ness" of the spines.

So healthy critters have sharper spines? I guess there's a sort of logic in that.

OK, I'll go along with Con-based to spare further argument.

Presumably that's just for the passive attacks, with the "active spiking" still being Str-based like a regular natural weapon?

That'll make it:

Spines (Ex): Any creature striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12* points of piercing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

A creature that steps on a pungi ray will have their feet pierced by its spines, taking 1d12* points of piercing damage plus exposure to the ray's poison. In addition, the creature has its land speed reduced by one-half due to the wound. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing.

A pungi ray can also use its spines to make a grapple attack or melee attack, dealing 1d12+2* piercing damage plus poison.

*Pungi rays add their Constitution modifier to the damage its spines inflict to opponents who strike or step upon them. A pungi ray adds its Strength modifier to grapple and melee attacks with its spines.

Shall I update the Pungi Ray Working Draft with that?

 

[freyar]

Yup, that'll do well enough.

Oddly, I don't see that we've worked out the poison for these. Sounds like fairly hefty Con damage, maybe 1d6/1d6 or so. What do you think?

 

[Cleon]

Yup, that'll do well enough.

Oddly, I don't see that we've worked out the poison for these. Sounds like fairly hefty Con damage, maybe 1d6/1d6 or so. What do you think?

Well the standard AD&D versions from both the 2E Monstrous Compendium Volume One and the 1E Monster Manual have "save or die instantly", so I'd like the poison to be pretty nasty.

How about 1d10 Con/1d10 Con? That is also a slight homage to the Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar version, which has "save vs. poison or take 1d10 damage".