Converting monsters from First Edition modules

[BOZ]

I don’t have access to those two monsters, so I don’t know what they look like. for oozes, I don’t think that’s quite the same situation as what we have here.

What you have to keep in mind, is that the whisps are not separate creatures; they are extensions of the presence. They have no mind or will of their own. If we gave them a separate stat block, they’d have to be mindless – Int 0, no skills or feats, and immune to mind-affecting effects (and probably anything that requires a will save), no alignment etc. But yes, I imagine we could do that if that’s the best option.

 

[Shade]

I'm honestly not sure on this one...I could see it go either way. Maybe we should just pick one method and see how it goes, knowing that we can always fall back on the other one?

 

[BOZ]

OK, i'll try the separate stat block thing, and we'll see where it goes from there.

 

[BOZ]

here we go, for starters:

Whisp
Tiny Aberration (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Fly 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +X Dex, +X deflection), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/---
Attack: Incorporeal touch +X melee (1d6)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +X melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/magic or silver, incorporeal traits, mindless
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str ---, Dex X, Con 10, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ---
Feats: ---

 

[Shade]

Add "(perfect)" to fly speed.

The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps.

So it looks like the whisps should get the darkvision 60 ft. common to aberrations, while the presence should be blind and deaf.

The more I look at this, it seems very similar to the master/familiar relationship. Perhaps, then, we can borrow/modify the following:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

Some of the other familiar abilities might also be appropriate.

 

[BOZ]

Add "(perfect)" to fly speed.

good call - i gave that to the presence also, with as fast as it can go at 5 ft per round.

So it looks like the whisps should get the darkvision 60 ft. common to aberrations, while the presence should be blind and deaf.

interesting, and probably true.

The more I look at this, it seems very similar to the master/familiar relationship.

Think of it this way. Imagine you could detach your fingers, turn them into lightning bolts, have them attack your enemies, and then rejoin your body. Whisps are more or less like that, from how I see it. I?m not so sure that familiars work the same way ? there you have independent creatures who function as you choose, but are only technically a part of you, but with whisps they exist only at the will of the presence, and are completely a part of and dependent on the originating creature.

That said, either way, we could probably adapt some parts of the familiars rules. I?ll need to give some thought to that later. I?ll be back home tonight.

 

[BOZ]

haven't left yet.

this sentence here, i think, is the key:

"Although whisps are only extensions of the presence, they may be thought of as distinct entities with the following characteristics for the purposes of combat"

 

[BOZ]

Time to break some of this down:

"In appearance they resemble a small zone of unnatural darkness, not unlike that produced by a darkness spell."

Should there be any combat application for this?

"In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is the ability to detect living creatures and their alignments within a radius of 60 feet."

This should get a writeup as well.


For whisps:

"In appearance, whisps are snake-like, writhing, green smoky clouds. Unlike smoke, however, they are unaffected by wind, etc, and are fast-moving and mobile."

Is this assumed because they are incorporeal?

"They are able to pass through the narrowest of cracks, and are even unhindered by up to six inches of wood or one inch of stone."

They are otherwise like gaseous forms. But then again, aren't they supposed to be incorporeal?

"A presence may send its whisps up to 50 feet away from itself, and its control over them may not be blocked."

Limitations and unlimitations?

"Whisps are not regarded as "summoned" creatures for the purposes of protection from evil spells etc."

OK.

"Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column, but, as extensions of the presence, are treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks."

Not quite sure what they are getting at?

"Each whisp created by a presence causes the presence to lose four hit points. These are restored if the presence re-absorbs the whisp, but if the whisp is destroyed they are lost, The presence has total control over the actions of its whisps. It can create and control up to one whisp per hit die at any single time, but a presence will never convert all its hit points into whisps. Whisps can attack the round they are created."

All of that is useful.

"The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps."

As is that.

"In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."

Flavor text.

 

[Shade]

Time to break some of this down:

"In appearance they resemble a small zone of unnatural darkness, not unlike that produced by a darkness spell."

Should there be any combat application for this?

We could give 'em concealment (20% miss chance) like the darkness spell grants now.

"In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is the ability to detect living creatures and their alignments within a radius of 60 feet."

This should get a writeup as well.

Didn't we do a lifesense ability on another critter?

For whisps:

"In appearance, whisps are snake-like, writhing, green smoky clouds. Unlike smoke, however, they are unaffected by wind, etc, and are fast-moving and mobile."

Is this assumed because they are incorporeal?

"They are able to pass through the narrowest of cracks, and are even unhindered by up to six inches of wood or one inch of stone."

They are otherwise like gaseous forms. But then again, aren't they supposed to be incorporeal?

I think incorporeality didn't really have a mechanic prior to 3E, so they had to spell out whatever an individual creature could do. I'd vote that we just make 'em incorporeal, and forget about all the squeezing and unaffected by wind hooey.

"A presence may send its whisps up to 50 feet away from itself, and its control over them may not be blocked."

Limitations and unlimitations?

Limitations. I'm not seeing any "unlimitations".

"Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column, but, as extensions of the presence, are treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks."

Not quite sure what they are getting at?

IIRC, monsters used the old THACO tables based on HD. This is one of the areas I thought that familiar abilities would work great...

Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

or, in our case...

Attacks: Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

"Each whisp created by a presence causes the presence to lose four hit points. These are restored if the presence re-absorbs the whisp, but if the whisp is destroyed they are lost, The presence has total control over the actions of its whisps. It can create and control up to one whisp per hit die at any single time, but a presence will never convert all its hit points into whisps. Whisps can attack the round they are created."

All of that is useful.

Indeed.

"The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps."

As is that.

How about something like...

Unnatural Senses (Su): A presence is blind and deaf. However, it can see and hear exactly what its whisps see and hear. In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is its lifesense ability.

"In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."

Flavor text.

Yep.

 

[BOZ]

We could give 'em concealment (20% miss chance) like the darkness spell grants now.

not bad, coupled with incorporeality.

Darkform (Ex): A presence's physical form seems to consist of a shadowy illumination that grants it concealment (20% miss chance). This effect is otherwise like the darkness spell.

Didn't we do a lifesense ability on another critter?

Don't remember. If so, we need to make sure it grants both the ability to detect living creatures, as well as their alignments. I'm assuming this would exclude undead and constructs?


Whisps:

I think incorporeality didn't really have a mechanic prior to 3E, so they had to spell out whatever an individual creature could do. I'd vote that we just make 'em incorporeal, and forget about all the squeezing and unaffected by wind hooey.

that's kind of what I was thinking.

Limitations. I'm not seeing any "unlimitations".

well, the fact that a presence's control over a whisp cannot be blocked sounds like the opposite of a limitation to me.

IIRC, monsters used the old THACO tables based on HD. This is one of the areas I thought that familiar abilities would work great...

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

or, in our case...

Attacks: Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

well, as incorporeals, they have no Str score, so we can assume the Dex will cover that. what I meant by my question was that, it is obvious that the whisp was intended to have a low attack roll (Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column) but the "treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks" was confusing me. Was it something like, in 1E, that fighters did something like the modern Cleave feat to creatures that had low-HD? In other words, if whisps technically had 11+ HD, fighters in 1E could not attack one after the other?

But yes, although the original version gave whisps a low attack value on purpose, if you like I guess we can give them a better one now.

How about something like...

Unnatural Senses (Su): A presence is blind and deaf. However, it can see and hear exactly what its whisps see and hear. In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is its lifesense ability.

that could work, but I may want to revise...


OK, here is a first attempt at a writeup for the whisps...

Whisps (Su): A presence can create whisps at will, using its own life force, which enable it to attack enemies. To create a whisp, a presence sacrifices four of its hit points. A presence can create as many whisps as it has Hit Dice as a standard action, and it cannot have more whisps than it has Hit Dice. A presence cannot convert all of its hit points into whisps. If the presence re-absorbs a whisp (as a free action), it regains all the hit points that the whisp had remaining.

A presence has total control over all its whisps, and its control over them cannot be blocked by any means. A whisp is fast-moving and mobile, and each one moves independently, and can move up to 50 feet away from the presence. A whisp can move and attack in the same round in which it is created.

A whisp has no independent will of its own, though each one is treated as a separate creature for combat purposes. (Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.)


note that the whisp isn't going to have any skills. As for saving throws, I don't want to give it any higher saves than what it would get for HD.