Converting monsters from the second edition Monstrous Compendiums

[BOZ]

good point, i'll add that in.

otherwise how do the attach and venom attacks look? do they make sense? too complicated or just fine?

Let me give this a try:

“Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.


Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?
“If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”

 

[Shade]

I think you are on the right track. You might want to check out the spine springer in the Mind's Eye:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040521e

IIRC, you can't follow urls at work, so here's the relevant abilities that you might be able to mine for ideas.

Body Slam (Ex): A spine springer that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe can make a charge attack and can use its entire body to strike a target. The springer's attack bonus is +8 (+6 for the slam, +2 for charging). The body slam deals 2d6+4 points of damage.

Pounce (Ex): If a spine springer makes a charge, it can make a full attack plus a body slam.

“Spring” Attack (Ex): When a whipsting jumps at an opponent from a coiled position, it gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll for the first round of combat.


Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?
“If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”

How about a +4 circumstance bonus to attack rolls?

 

[BOZ]

I’m back!

You know, oddly enough, I can actually access that link! Sometimes I can link to the WotC site from work, and sometimes I can’t… this time I could! (this does give a possible explanation why thom99 thought the whipsting should be a plant, if he was thinking of the spine springer at the time. )

Let me see, how well does it work like this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).

Not sure if I want to keep the pounce though…


Let me repost the other SA’s we’ve written up so far, to better keep track of things and see how it looks as a whole. Also, I wrote the combat text:

A whipsting will usually wait for prey to approach while in a coiled position; it curls one tentacle underneath itself to form a sort of natural spring. It leaps far in this position by suddenly straightening itself out to propel itself in a wild spring. In this way, it surprises its foes and lands on it, making the loud, lashing whip crack for which it is known as it drives its envenomed stinger into its opponent. It then attaches to its prey, which it continues to slap with its tentacles to drive him its stings while it tries to constrict, smother, or strangle the prey.

A whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away. It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.

Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its stinger deep into the opponent. This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent. A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached. An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey. The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity. Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.

Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey. This venom is also effective through skin contact. For every successful attack with the stinger, a victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d2 points of Strength damage and 1d3 points of Dexterity damage, and be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.

- I lowered the venom damage a bit, since it is effective on every hit. Also, the effect is better described by “stunned” than “nauseated” – and stunned is more severe than nauseated and covers everything that nausea covers, so I changed that as well.


For the whipsting’s feat, I’m starting to agree with Krishnath on just Weapon Finesse. I was originally considering Improved Grapple, but we can give it a big enough racial bonus for Attach that that feat won’t be necessary at all. I was also considering Multiattack, but that might also be unnecessary. With Weapon Finesse, it would be +6 to hit with bite, and +1 to hit with stingers. The spring jump attack bumps that up to +7 though, which it would use at every available opportunity.

“If facing a large foe, a whipsting often avoids attacking or seeks to flee altogether by using this curled tentacle to leap about in a constant bobbing or bouncing pattern, like a pogo stick.”

Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?

A whipsting eats any meat it, can, living or dead, gorging itself tirelessly. Its elastic body can expand to contain meals of up to 10 times its own size.

don’t remember if I asked this before or not, but would this be a useful ability in any way or should we limit that to flavor text?

 

[BOZ]

...and posting in homebrews.

 

[Shade]

Just to muddy the waters a bit more, the following creatures from Serpent Kingdoms have abilities that are similar to the whipsting's:

Coil Slam (Ex): A whipsnake can whip its body against an opponent (+5 melee), dealing 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. In addition, the target must make a DC 12 Reflex save to escape the coils. Failure means the opponent lands prone in its square, and the whipsnake automatically establishes a hold on it and can constrict as if it had made a successful grapple check.

Spring (Ex): A tree python can gather its coils and then launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. Furthermore, when jumping down, the tree python takes damage as if it had dropped 90 fewer feet than it actually did.

 

[BOZ]

why you little... i'll give this some thought tomorrow. in the meantime, any comments on the other stuff i posted?

 

[Shade]

Here's comments on some of it. You know, it's surprising how much Serpent Kingdoms can help with this critter!

A whipsting will usually wait for prey to approach while in a coiled position; it curls one tentacle underneath itself to form a sort of natural spring. It leaps far in this position by suddenly straightening itself out to propel itself in a wild spring. In this way, it surprises its foes and lands on it, making the loud, lashing whip crack for which it is known as it drives its envenomed stinger into its opponent. It then attaches to its prey, which it continues to slap with its tentacles to drive him its stings while it tries to constrict, smother, or strangle the prey.

A modified form of the coil slam ability I posted should work for this.

A whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away. It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.

Flavor text? The amphisbaena and a few other creatures in SK have an unusual form of locomotion mentioned in flavor text.

Attach (Ex): If a whipsting hits with a tentacle attack, it latches onto the opponent’s body and drives its stinger deep into the opponent. This deals 1 point of damage per tentacle, and injects the whipsting’s venom into the opponent. A whipsting may continue to make tentacle attacks each round that it remains attached. An attached whipsting is effectively grappling its prey. The whipsting loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of X, but holds on with great tenacity. Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).

An attached whipsting can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached whipsting through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the whipsting.

Lookin' good. You might want to mention how long it remains attached, like most other creatures of this ability do. (i.e., when it is sated, and so on).

Venom (Ex): A whipsting’s stinger injects the creature’s venom into its prey. This venom is also effective through skin contact. For every successful attack with the stinger, a victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d2 points of Strength damage and 1d3 points of Dexterity damage, and be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.

- I lowered the venom damage a bit, since it is effective on every hit. Also, the effect is better described by “stunned” than “nauseated” – and stunned is more severe than nauseated and covers everything that nausea covers, so I changed that as well.

This one is coming along well, too. You might want to simplify 3.5 style to thus:

Poison (Ex): Sting, injury or contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Str, 1d3 Dex, stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.

For the whipsting’s feat, I’m starting to agree with Krishnath on just Weapon Finesse. I was originally considering Improved Grapple, but we can give it a big enough racial bonus for Attach that that feat won’t be necessary at all. I was also considering Multiattack, but that might also be unnecessary. With Weapon Finesse, it would be +6 to hit with bite, and +1 to hit with stingers. The spring jump attack bumps that up to +7 though, which it would use at every available opportunity.

Yeah, go with Weapon Finesse.

Should we make use of this somehow? AC dodge bonus? Add it to the spring action above?

Flavor text.

don’t remember if I asked this before or not, but would this be a useful ability in any way or should we limit that to flavor text?

Flavor text. Once again, one of the critters in SK has similar flavor text.

 

[BOZ]

Here's comments on some of it. You know, it's surprising how much Serpent Kingdoms can help with this critter!

A modified form of the coil slam ability I posted should work for this.

So, if I took this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).

And mixed it with these:
Coil Slam (Ex): A whipsnake can whip its body against an opponent (+5 melee), dealing 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. In addition, the target must make a DC 12 Reflex save to escape the coils. Failure means the opponent lands prone in its square, and the whipsnake automatically establishes a hold on it and can constrict as if it had made a successful grapple check.

Spring (Ex): A tree python can gather its coils and then launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. Furthermore, when jumping down, the tree python takes damage as if it had dropped 90 fewer feet than it actually did.

I might get something a little more like this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting in a coiled position can launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe this way can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +7 (which includes +1 for the stinger and +2 for charging).

Now mind you, I think it definitely needs some sort of racial bonus to Jump, to offset the mediocre Strength and the speed penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOZA whipsting facing a large or powerful foe will avoid attacking, and if necessary seeks to flee altogether by springing away. It can use its curled tentacle to leap about like a pogo stick, in a constant pattern of bobbing and bouncing.

Flavor text? The amphisbaena and a few other creatures in SK have an unusual form of locomotion mentioned in flavor text.

I think the point of that passage was not mere locomotion, but a defense mechanism. This is why I’ve been asking if this movement should provide any sort of defensive bonus. If it’s best suited to flavor text, then I want to give it the Dodge feat anyway as a bonus.

Lookin' good. You might want to mention how long it remains attached, like most other creatures of this ability do. (i.e., when it is sated, and so on).

true, but unlike a stirge this fella doesn’t drain anything from its opponent. I don’t know how long it would want to remain attached. The text doesn’t say anything about duration – maybe until prey falls prone from ability drain?

This one is coming along well, too. You might want to simplify 3.5 style to thus:

Poison (Ex): Sting, injury or contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Str, 1d3 Dex, stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +(2?) racial bonus. A whipsting is immune to the effects of all whipsting venom, as are any creatures that are immune to poison.

I don’t know about that – having all of that as initial and secondary damage for two stings per round will be pretty devastating. MAYBE I would consider doing it this with the stunning as initial and the ability damage as secondary… I’ll think about that.

Yeah, go with Weapon Finesse.

done and done.

 

[Shade]

So, if I took this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe from a coiled position can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +X (which includes +X for the stinger and +2 for charging).

And mixed it with these:
Coil Slam (Ex): A whipsnake can whip its body against an opponent (+5 melee), dealing 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. In addition, the target must make a DC 12 Reflex save to escape the coils. Failure means the opponent lands prone in its square, and the whipsnake automatically establishes a hold on it and can constrict as if it had made a successful grapple check.

Spring (Ex): A tree python can gather its coils and then launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. Furthermore, when jumping down, the tree python takes damage as if it had dropped 90 fewer feet than it actually did.

I might get something a little more like this:
Spring Slam (Ex): A whipsting in a coiled position can launch itself in a jump. The jump DCs for both long jumps and high jumps are halved, and no running start is required. A whipsting that leaps at least 10 feet to attack a foe this way can make a charge attack and attack with both of its stingers. The whipsting gains a +4 circumstance bonus to its attack roll, making its attack bonus +7 (which includes +1 for the stinger and +2 for charging).

Yes, that seems quite good!

Now mind you, I think it definitely needs some sort of racial bonus to Jump, to offset the mediocre Strength and the speed penalty.

Why not say that it uses its Dex modifier for Jump checks? I believe there is a precedent, although I can't locate it at the moment. I do know that most of the snakes in SK use their Dex mod for Climb checks, and that the muckdweller uses its Dex mod for Swim checks, so Jump doesn't seem too much of a stretch since it is the only other Str-based skill.

I think the point of that passage was not mere locomotion, but a defense mechanism. This is why I’ve been asking if this movement should provide any sort of defensive bonus. If it’s best suited to flavor text, then I want to give it the Dodge feat anyway as a bonus.

I think the Dodge feat (and possibly even Mobility) as a bonus feat would work best in this case.

true, but unlike a stirge this fella doesn’t drain anything from its opponent. I don’t know how long it would want to remain attached. The text doesn’t say anything about duration – maybe until prey falls prone from ability drain?

Good point. Yeah, either go with your "falls prone" text or ignore it.

I don’t know about that – having all of that as initial and secondary damage for two stings per round will be pretty devastating. MAYBE I would consider doing it this with the stunning as initial and the ability damage as secondary… I’ll think about that.

I agree. I was just trying to reformat what you had so far.

 

[BOZ]

Why not say that it uses its Dex modifier for Jump checks? I believe there is a precedent, although I can't locate it at the moment. I do know that most of the snakes in SK use their Dex mod for Climb checks, and that the muckdweller uses its Dex mod for Swim checks, so Jump doesn't seem too much of a stretch since it is the only other Str-based skill.

yes, there is definitely a precedent for such a thing, and I will definitely use it here. That would make Jump +5 for Dex, -4 for speed, plus whatever ranks it would get (not many). I’m thinking of giving it something additional to offset that speed penalty. Paraphrased from the entry for the common housecat:
Skills: Whipstings have a +X racial bonus on Jump checks. Whipstings use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.

I think the Dodge feat (and possibly even Mobility) as a bonus feat would work best in this case.

I agree on Mobility, but I worry that it might be a bit much.

Good point. Yeah, either go with your "falls prone" text or ignore it.

I just went with this for combat flavor text: “It will usually remain attached until that prey becomes helpless from ability damage, or until attacked successfully by another opponent.” If it survives the first hit, it will be heavily damaged right?

I agree. I was just trying to reformat what you had so far.

I think I’ll keep my Venom writeup the same then.