Charles Wright
First Post
See, for me that's a feature and teaches the valuable lesson of "Run Away!" instead of "The DM won't throw anything we can't handle at us".
But maybe that's just me (and everybody else at FGG/Necromancer).
D&D 5E Converting Older Edition Adventures to 5E
- Thread starter Olaf the Stout
- Start date
See, for me that's a feature and teaches the valuable lesson of "Run Away!" instead of "The DM won't throw anything we can't handle at us".
But maybe that's just me (and everybody else at FGG/Necromancer).
See, for me that's a feature and teaches the valuable lesson of "Run Away!" instead of "The DM won't throw anything we can't handle at us".
But maybe that's just me (and everybody else at FGG/Necromancer).
Oh, I love "Run Away!" play... really, really love it. I've fond memories of an owlbear chasing characters through corridors a couple of years ago in my AD&D campaign. Then there was that tyrannosaurus on the Isle of Dread...
My chief objection to the powering-up of giants is that I prefer giants to not be so tough - I like PCs cleaving through them! (Dragons, OTOH, I think deserved the redesign). And it's not like G1-3 was a cakewalk before the giants got more powerful!
Another aspect of all of this is the style of adventure. With more sand-boxy encounters, the "Run Away!" tactic is far more effective. When you write adventures as "You must defeat X now to continue", then the relative balance matters (and, of course, causes all sorts of problems).
Cheers!
Remathilis
Legend
As an Odd choice, I've been "converting" Reavers of Harkenwold (from the 4e DM Kit). While I'm not running it verbatim (I'm running a bit more of a spiritual brother than the actual encounters) I can give a bit of insight on 4e conversion.
1.) Most encounters have to be rebuilt from scratch. Luckily, most monsters/NPCs have been in 5e MM, save some named NPCs. The biggest issues has been minions. I find 1/8 CR creatures make decent minions so far.
2.) Most DCs need major lowering. The DCs for a 3rd level adventure are often around 20 (which is near impossible for 5e PCs of that level).
3.) Whenever it says "treasure packet", roll a lair treasure.
4.) Watch terrain. Some of it gives minor bonuses (+1 for standing on a table) that can convert to advantage, but I'd limit them lest PCs get advantage every round.
5.) The "dungeons" are pretty weak, so I replaced them with revised actual maps they can explore. The Toadwallow Caverns and Dat Nysterie were basically three rooms of fights, so I changed them to small dungeons to explore. (Toadwallow now uses the Cragmaw caves from the Basic Set, Dat Nysterie now uses the Black Spire from Tome of Magic; both maps are online via Google).
6.) That said, the Iron Keep is beautiful and works as a classic dungeon.
So its possible, but as I said I'm basically using the skeleton and adding my own meat anyway.
1.) Most encounters have to be rebuilt from scratch. Luckily, most monsters/NPCs have been in 5e MM, save some named NPCs. The biggest issues has been minions. I find 1/8 CR creatures make decent minions so far.
2.) Most DCs need major lowering. The DCs for a 3rd level adventure are often around 20 (which is near impossible for 5e PCs of that level).
3.) Whenever it says "treasure packet", roll a lair treasure.
4.) Watch terrain. Some of it gives minor bonuses (+1 for standing on a table) that can convert to advantage, but I'd limit them lest PCs get advantage every round.
5.) The "dungeons" are pretty weak, so I replaced them with revised actual maps they can explore. The Toadwallow Caverns and Dat Nysterie were basically three rooms of fights, so I changed them to small dungeons to explore. (Toadwallow now uses the Cragmaw caves from the Basic Set, Dat Nysterie now uses the Black Spire from Tome of Magic; both maps are online via Google).
6.) That said, the Iron Keep is beautiful and works as a classic dungeon.
So its possible, but as I said I'm basically using the skeleton and adding my own meat anyway.
Charles Wright
First Post
Ah, I've got ya, Merric. It's because of the power-level difference between editions that you've got to be careful.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
I love "Run Away!" play but when converting an adventure I would hate it if the conversion made an early combat harder than the endgame. Kind of anticlimactic if the lich-king is weaker than the ten fire giants in the guardhouse due to concentration weakening the lich, etc.
Yep.
It's a real trap when the assumptions change between editions. The 3E Banshee is a good case in point; if you were converting from a 1E/2E adventure, you were far better served by using the version in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors than the official 3E version, because one was CR 7 (NG) and the other 17! (WotC).
I keep a very close eye on humanoids when converting. 4E, in particular, made certain monsters a lot tougher than they used to be. There's a big difference between encountering a party of orcs in AD&D and in 4E. Even in 5E, an orc is significantly more dangerous than in AD&D. A party of 6 first-level PCs against 6 orcs is mostly a balanced encounter (it often favours the PCs, especially if they have sleep), but in 5E, a party of 6 first-level PCs against 6 orcs could very easily be a TPK.
Although some encounters should be avoided, it's not good to have every encounter that way!
Cheers!
pming
Legend
Hiya.
My suggestions; BECMI, 1e/2e you can pretty much just sub monster for monster (e.g., "6 goblins" in 1e equate to "6 goblins" in 5e). The play styles for those earlier editions fit pretty well with that of 5e.
If converting from 3.x/PF/4e, you have to almost think "in reverse". Taking a 5th level party in 3e, fighting 6 goblins was a cake walk for the most part, but fighting 1 buffed-up, templated, tweaked out "solo monster" was a challenge. Using 5e, we've found the 3.x/PF/4e style of "lots of guys = easy fight; one guy = challenging fight" to be bass ackwards. A group of 5th level guys taking on one creature have a distinct advantage...those same 5th level characters taking on multiple lower-level creatures are at at distinct disadvantage. I've said this in other threads, but it was our experience that if we, as a PC group, came upon a dozen creatures, regardless of our level, it was "Get 'em boys!", but encountering a single creature in a big cave basically mean "Shut the F up and back out very, very slowly...!". It's the opposite in 5e.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
My suggestions; BECMI, 1e/2e you can pretty much just sub monster for monster (e.g., "6 goblins" in 1e equate to "6 goblins" in 5e). The play styles for those earlier editions fit pretty well with that of 5e.
If converting from 3.x/PF/4e, you have to almost think "in reverse". Taking a 5th level party in 3e, fighting 6 goblins was a cake walk for the most part, but fighting 1 buffed-up, templated, tweaked out "solo monster" was a challenge. Using 5e, we've found the 3.x/PF/4e style of "lots of guys = easy fight; one guy = challenging fight" to be bass ackwards. A group of 5th level guys taking on one creature have a distinct advantage...those same 5th level characters taking on multiple lower-level creatures are at at distinct disadvantage. I've said this in other threads, but it was our experience that if we, as a PC group, came upon a dozen creatures, regardless of our level, it was "Get 'em boys!", but encountering a single creature in a big cave basically mean "Shut the F up and back out very, very slowly...!". It's the opposite in 5e.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Yep.
It's a real trap when the assumptions change between editions. The 3E Banshee is a good case in point; if you were converting from a 1E/2E adventure, you were far better served by using the version in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors than the official 3E version, because one was CR 7 (NG) and the other 17! (WotC).
I keep a very close eye on humanoids when converting. 4E, in particular, made certain monsters a lot tougher than they used to be. There's a big difference between encountering a party of orcs in AD&D and in 4E. Even in 5E, an orc is significantly more dangerous than in AD&D. A party of 6 first-level PCs against 6 orcs is mostly a balanced encounter (it often favours the PCs, especially if they have sleep), but in 5E, a party of 6 first-level PCs against 6 orcs could very easily be a TPK.
Although some encounters should be avoided, it's not good to have every encounter that way!
Cheers!
Bounded Accuracy works both ways. It means the low level creatures can impact the group, but also the group can impact much higher CR creatures.
As an example the Kraken in city of the spider queen is EL14. I kept the CR23 5e version instead. My party had a battle with it then decided it was probably best to avoid it, but it wasn't overwhelming for them.
The exception seems to be monsters created with the DMG rules. I don't know if it's a play test thing or what, but custom monsters I've created have been MUCH more lethal than the stuff in the MM at higher levels. I actually much prefer them.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
The DMG custom monster rules are very exploitable. It's trivial to create a CR 1/4 creature that can kill Frost Giants with ease. Here are some things that are "free" for a CR 1/4 monster:
Arbitrarily high movement
Teleportation
Ranged attacks as long as they don't deal more than 8 damage on average
An arbitrarily high number of Legendary Resistances
Immunities to an arbitrary number of conditions (exhausted/charmed/stunned/etc.)
Immunity to fire/cold/force/blunt/piercing/slashing/magical weapons/etc., as long as you halve HP to compensate
Arbitrarily high ability scores, as long as they don't increase damage dealt or total HP (INT 24, WIS 24, CHA 24, CON 24 as long as you give it a small base HD)
I forget whether you can get spell immunity for free as well, but 50 Legendary Resistances is pretty sweet already.
In short, the DMG rules are okay-ish as a formula for telling you how much experience a given creature is worth, since you gotta have something, but they're quite bad at telling you how genuinely dangerous a creature with special abilities is. If you create a custom monster, and it isn't just a sack of HP with a melee attack--suppose that it has a ranged Entangling attack and can teleport as a bonus action to snatch entangled prey--it's guaranteed that the DMG guidelines will underestimate its lethality.
On the plus side, the DMG encounter balancing guidelines already underestimate PCs' (potential) lethality, so tricksy monsters against tricksy PCs might actually be a fair match.
As an aside: one of the best advantages a monster can have is looking so much like a weaker monster that it gets underestimated. In my world, PCs benefit from this constantly. They look just like regular, weak old humans. A squad of 12 hobgoblins doesn't run away from three PCs when they see them coming because the hobgoblins assume they will win! If hobgoblins have been warned by the survivor of a previous battle, or if the PC Necromancer raises an army of skeletons, this ceases to be true, and the hobgoblin squad takes the threat as seriously as an enemy platoon (break contact, skirmish at range while waiting for reinforcements to arrive in force--all the things that frustrate PCs).
The CR Guidelines are just that: guidelines. They require some analysis when going off what is normal to design a monster.
A couple things in your list are not free and would make it impossible to have a CR1/4 monster:
*Each use of Legendary Resistance is worth 10 effective hp for a CR1/4 monster. 50 uses would be worth 500 effective hp. A monster that had no attack bonus, DPR or AC would still have a minimum CR of 8 at that point.
*Nothing to my knowledge has immunity or resistance to magic weapons or that many immunities. The high number of immunities would increase the monsters effective hp.
*Giving a monster all 24s for ability scores effectively gives it 6 saving throw bonuses, adding 4 to effective AC and 1 to the overall CR.
*The DPR range for a CR 1/4 monster is 4-5 instead of 8.
The only "free" things in this list are teleportation, condition immunity, and movement. No CR 1/4 creature is going to be able to kill a frost giant with ease without some interesting shenanigans going on.
I have made dozens of monsters as part of my Age of Worms conversion. The encounters generally run exactly at the difficulty level I set for them. So the guidelines seem to work pretty well from my perspective. Last night I made a froghemoth, a huge aberration with 24 strength, 22 Con, immunity to lightning and poison, resistance to firea sticky tongue attack with 30 foot reach, a bite attack that swallows if the creature is already grappled, 3 legendary resistance, tentacles with 15 foot reach and grappe and move and bite available as legendary actions, and stomach acid. I adjusted the effective HP, AC, DPR, and AB to make a CR 13 creature. A CR13 creature is a medium encounter for 4 13th level PCs. I have 6 PCs, so I needed a CR18 creature instead. I adjusted the effective HP only until it became a CR18 creature. This should be a hard encounter for my 10th level PCs on paper. At the end of the battle, most PC resources were expended, and a couple PCs had come close to dying outright. So mission accomplished in terms of difficulty.
I really like your story immersion regarding the hobgoblins though.
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