Converting prehistoric creatures

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while!

I noticed you were talking about giant turtles and what benefits withdrawing their limbs into their shells would get them, rules wise. Here's what I came up with a while back:

Withdraw (Ex): An Atlas tortoise can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains the equivalent of improved cover (+8 AC, +4 on Reflex saves, improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies). Withdrawing into its shell also improves the Atlas tortoise's fortification to moderate, giving it a 75% chance to avoid critical hits and sneak attacks.

 

[Cleon]

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while!

Welcome back! It's been a long time since you've been round these parts.

I noticed you were talking about giant turtles and what benefits withdrawing their limbs into their shells would get them, rules wise. Here's what I came up with a while back:

Withdraw (Ex): An Atlas tortoise can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains the equivalent of improved cover (+8 AC, +4 on Reflex saves, improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies). Withdrawing into its shell also improves the Atlas tortoise's fortification to moderate, giving it a 75% chance to avoid critical hits and sneak attacks.

Not keen on the bonus to Reflex saves, since it's immobile while withdrawn.

Here's a vaguely similar SQ I came up with...

Armoured Ball (Ex): A pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour, Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to DC15 Shivering Scales, AC17 (touch 11, flat-footed 17) and DR 5/–. The pangolin can unroll into an upright position with a standard action.

Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a tree pangolin rolled into an Armoured Ball, there is a 25% chance (50% for Medium-sized pangolins) that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but the pangolin receives a +12 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

Also, the Porcupine conversion we whipped up for the Enworld CC had a "Hunker Down" SQ:

Hunker Down (Ex): If a porcupine is threatened in melee and cannot retreat to a safe distance from its opponent(s), it curls its head and legs under its torso while on the ground and flares its quills in all directions. In this defensive position, the Reflex save DC of its quills special attack gains a +2 bonus (increasing it to DC 14 for a typical porcupine), but the porcupine's speed is reduced to 10 ft. and it cannot charge or run.

 

[InsanePsychoRabbit]

Welcome back! It's been a long time since you've been round these parts.



Not keen on the bonus to Reflex saves, since it's immobile while withdrawn.

Here's a vaguely similar SQ I came up with...

Armoured Ball (Ex): A pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour, Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to DC15 Shivering Scales, AC17 (touch 11, flat-footed 17) and DR 5/–. The pangolin can unroll into an upright position with a standard action.

Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a tree pangolin rolled into an Armoured Ball, there is a 25% chance (50% for Medium-sized pangolins) that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but the pangolin receives a +12 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

I understand your opinion on the bonus to Reflex saves. I chose improved cover (with bonus to Reflex saves) intentionally on the basis of I once saw a documentary in which an African tortoise survived a grass fire by withdrawing into its shell. (I wasn't able to find it again, but if you Google "tortoise survives fire" there's a reference to a pet tortoise that survived a house fire.) Now, imagine that fire was a fireball spell instead, which the tortoise avoids (Reflex save) by seeking cover in the form of its shell.

If you still don't like the whole bonus-to-Reflex-saves idea, I'd be willing to work with the Armored Ball ability or something similar. I suppose the DR gained with that ability could also represent what I'm getting at with the tortoise-survives-fire thing.

 

[Cleon]

I understand your opinion on the bonus to Reflex saves. I chose improved cover (with bonus to Reflex saves) intentionally on the basis of I once saw a documentary in which an African tortoise survived a grass fire by withdrawing into its shell. (I wasn't able to find it again, but if you Google "tortoise survives fire" there's a reference to a pet tortoise that survived a house fire.) Now, imagine that fire was a fireball spell instead, which the tortoise avoids (Reflex save) by seeking cover in the form of its shell.

If you still don't like the whole bonus-to-Reflex-saves idea, I'd be willing to work with the Armored Ball ability or something similar. I suppose the DR gained with that ability could also represent what I'm getting at with the tortoise-survives-fire thing.

Well, even if the DM applies Reflex saves to grass fires, the tortoise is going to be in the fire for a pretty long time, so wouldn't it need to succeed at a LOT of Ref saves to avoid roasting?

Having a "withdrawn" tortoise gain some energy-resistance protection would seem a better fit.

Although I prefer the Giant Sea Turtle to get bonuses to NA and DR when it's limbs are retracted.

 

[freyar]

I don't really like energy resistance, as that just feels weird. Maybe maybe maybe a small amount. If everyone really wants it.

Some variation of Armored Ball or Withdraw works. I don't particularly like boosting NA/cover plus DR, since the shell should either be protecting the turtle (providing AC) or be considered a part of the turtle resistant to damage (DR), but not both.

A good analogy might be the tower shield, which normally provides AC but can be used to provide cover. So I think I like some refinement of IPR's Withdraw. How about something like this? (Name is certainly up for discussion.)

Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.

We could bump the fortification if we're giving it fortification when not withdrawn, I guess.

 

[Cleon]

How about something like this? (Name is certainly up for discussion.)

Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.

We could bump the fortification if we're giving it fortification when not withdrawn, I guess.

I could go along with that, although I prefer heavy or moderate fortification with moderate or light fortification for the un-withdrawn turtle.

 

[Shade]

Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.

I like this.

I could go along with that, although I prefer heavy or moderate fortification with moderate or light fortification for the un-withdrawn turtle.

That's fine, too.

 

[Cleon]

I like this.

That's fine, too.

OK, I'll update the Working Draft with the latter option.

Do we give it light fortification & moderate when withdrawn or moderate fortification & heavy when withdrawn.

I prefer moderate & heavy - these things are HUGE, so ought to have very tough shells. Besides, that'll give use an excuse to give the Ferry Turtle light fortification.

So that's what I'm going to give it!

 

[freyar]

I thought it was going to be moderate fortification (75%) when not withdrawn, not some un-named 50%. ;p

But it looks pretty good.

I might go to CR 1/2 on the normal size version, just since the AC is pretty decent. And CR 5 on the giant one, I think.

 

[Cleon]

I thought it was going to be moderate fortification (75%) when not withdrawn, not some un-named 50%. ;p

But it looks pretty good.

I might go to CR 1/2 on the normal size version, just since the AC is pretty decent. And CR 5 on the giant one, I think.

I'm leaning more toward 1/3 and 4 myself.

Can you persuade me otherwise?