Converting prehistoric creatures

[freyar]

Con 20 and bump Cha to 5.

I think we should keep Indefatigable Swim but perhaps alter it slightly to give it a larger than usual carrying capacity.

EDIT: on the feats, let's definitely drop Weapon Focus and give them Endurance and Toughness as the normal feats.

 

[Cleon]

Con 20 and bump Cha to 5.

As you like.

I think we should keep Indefatigable Swim but perhaps alter it slightly to give it a larger than usual carrying capacity.

I'm unsure as to how many turtles pulled each ferry. It could have been several per barge. Also, would they use their "drag" weight to determine how heavy a ferry they can pull? I suppose if it's more than their "heavy load" they won't be able to tow it very quickly.

Hmm, I suppose a Sled is the closest thing on the Equipment List to a small ferry. They weigh 300 pounds. If we assume it can carry six people like a Carriage, that's another 1500 pounds or so.

That's 1800 pounds in toto, which is more than the 1200 pound heavy load of a Ferry Turtle, so I wouldn't object to increasing it.

However, I'd rather keep the Indefatigable Swim as-is and modify the Carrying Capacity entry, like we did for the Xytar (and Camarilla).

I propose one of the following:

Carrying Capacity #1 : Due to their sturdy build, ferry turtles can bear exceptionally heavy loads. Their carrying capacity is 50% higher than an ordinary creature with their size and their Strength. A typical ferry turtle can carry a light load of up to 600 pounds, a medium load of 601-1200 pound, a heavy load of 1201-1800 pounds, and can drag 9,000 pounds.

Carrying Capacity #2 : Due to their sturdy build, ferry turtles can bear exceptionally heavy loads. Their carrying capacity is twice that of an ordinary creature with their size and their Strength. A typical ferry turtle can carry a light load of up to 800 pounds, a medium load of 801-1600 pound, a heavy load of 1601-2400 pounds, and can drag 12,000 pounds.

#2 seems the most appropriate.

EDIT: on the feats, let's definitely drop Weapon Focus and give them Endurance and Toughness as the normal feats.

Increasing the Con to 20 accomplishes the target HP I was aiming for, so it doesn't need the Toughness too.

So, we can use that feat for something else.

Maybe Alertness, Diehard, Iron Will or Run?

 

[freyar]

Yes, let's go for Carrying Capacity option 2.

Alertness seems like the most appropriate of those feats.

I'm fine with the 75% fortification and 100% when withdrawn. These are magical critters, after all, and they just seem like they'd be tough.

Looks like we need 200 rounds/20 minutes for Hold Breath.

CR 4? They seem to fall in between the juvenile and adult tojanida, which are similarish critters.

 

[Echohawk]

I'm unsure as to how many turtles pulled each ferry. It could have been several per barge.

I've just spent more than an hour paging through a variety of Dragonlance sources to try to provide a firm answer to this question, but it seems that the ferry turtles are only mentioned once, in The Sylan Veil, and that doesn't specify how many pull each barge.

Still, given the troubled recent history of Silvanesti (turned into a nightmare realm for thirty years by King Lorac and the Dragonorb; tricked by Cyan Bloodbane into raising a shield which killed nearly half of the population; invaded by Mina and the Dark Knights; and finally, invaded again by minotaurs during the War of Souls) I guess it isn't terribly surprising that these turtles don't get more attention.

It is probably safest to assume that a small to average barge could be pulled by one ferry turtle, and that larger craft would make use of more turtles.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying "I like Carrying Capacity option 2" as well

 

[Cleon]

Yes, let's go for Carrying Capacity option 2.

Alertness seems like the most appropriate of those feats.

I'm fine with the 75% fortification and 100% when withdrawn. These are magical critters, after all, and they just seem like they'd be tough.

Looks like we need 200 rounds/20 minutes for Hold Breath.

CR 4? They seem to fall in between the juvenile and adult tojanida, which are similarish critters.

Updating Working Draft.

I moved some SPs from Spot to Listen.

Challenge Rating 4 seems a bit high. It's not that far from the CR 3 Ogre as far as its combat abilities go. The Ogre does a bit more damage and has a ranged attack with Reach, but the Turtle has better defences.

They look more like a 3 to me.

What about Organization and Advancement?

Will we have them living in groups? I like the idea of them being social beasts.

Do we want them Advancing to Huge size, or will we keep them Large?

 

[Echohawk]

Will we have them living in groups? I like the idea of them being social beasts.

Do we want them Advancing to Huge size, or will we keep them Large

I think they probably shouldn't get any bigger. They were magically enlarged in the first place, so it strikes me that their default size should be the largest they get.

I'm also not sure they should be social beasts, since the only examples were bred in captivity and are used as beasts of burden. Then again, they might have retained social traits from their original forms and indeed live in groups when not put to work pulling barges.

 

[Cleon]

I think they probably shouldn't get any bigger. They were magically enlarged in the first place, so it strikes me that their default size should be the largest they get.

I'm OK either way.

Reptiles tend to grow slowly throughout their adult lives, so wouldn't mind it if particularly ancient Ferry Turtles grown to Huge size, but if you're all agin' it I'd be OK without size Advancement.

I'm also not sure they should be social beasts, since the only examples were bred in captivity and are used as beasts of burden. Then again, they might have retained social traits from their original forms and indeed live in groups when not put to work pulling barges.

Well, they are intelligent creatures that are willing to work for another species, which suggests to me they are unlikely to be "unsocial".

At the very least, I think they'd be tolerant enough of other Ferry Turtles to live together. They may not necessarily cooperate with each other, so each individual turtle in a group in the wild tends to "do its own thing", but I don't think they should be solitary creatures like, say, a leopard.

 

[freyar]

This is the problem with the somewhat uneven CR system. There is a pretty big difference in damage-dealing potential between the ferry turtle and ogre, but, as you say, the turtle's defenses are much better, including quite a few more hp. Plus, it lives in the water, which is a little tough for most PCs of that level to deal with (given the good defenses, ranged attacks would take a while to do too much to them). Meanwhile, it's much better than the juvenile tojanida. And I'd say it's comparable to the CR 4 sea cat. Maybe this is a case of the ogre being under-CRed? Anyway, I'd prefer CR 4, but I don't think it makes a huge difference, as these shouldn't be targets most of the time.


Turtles are pretty social in my experience, in as much as they hang around in fairly large groups as often as not, even if they don't really interact most of the time. So I'd think a group organization of 4-20 is reasonable. One noun for a group of turtles is a "bale"; how about using that?

 

[Cleon]

This is the problem with the somewhat uneven CR system. There is a pretty big difference in damage-dealing potential between the ferry turtle and ogre, but, as you say, the turtle's defenses are much better, including quite a few more hp. Plus, it lives in the water, which is a little tough for most PCs of that level to deal with (given the good defenses, ranged attacks would take a while to do too much to them). Meanwhile, it's much better than the juvenile tojanida. And I'd say it's comparable to the CR 4 sea cat. Maybe this is a case of the ogre being under-CRed? Anyway, I'd prefer CR 4, but I don't think it makes a huge difference, as these shouldn't be targets most of the time.

Compared to our Ferry Turtle, the Sea Cat's got more HP, three attacks that add up to higher damage (1d8+7 vs 1d6+4 & 1d6+4 & 1d8+2), ans Rend for even more damage (2d6+6). It's a good CR 4, but is a nastier combatant than the Ferry Turtle.

We seem to be at an impasse, shall we turn to Echohawk to decide?

Turtles are pretty social in my experience, in as much as they hang around in fairly large groups as often as not, even if they don't really interact most of the time. So I'd think a group organization of 4-20 is reasonable. One noun for a group of turtles is a "bale"; how about using that?

Quite, it's the "hanging around together" that I was thinking of.

Bale's a good collective noun for them. Maybe it's inspired by the goods they ferry?

I was thinking of a smaller number than that. The Giant Snapping Turtle is encountered in groups of 1-4, and the Giant Sea Turtle has a 1-3 No. Appearing.

How about 2-8 for the Ferry Turtle group size?

 

[Echohawk]

We seem to be at an impasse, shall we turn to Echohawk to decide?

I recall the ogre being under-CRed, so that's probably not the best creature to use for comparison purposes. But I'm really not good at judging CRs at all -- it's been far too long since I ran any 3.x monsters.

I'll let a coin toss decide instead... and the coin seems to think that the ferry turtle should be CR 3.