D&D 5E Converting Psionics to 5e?

Morlock

Banned
Banned
Anybody else thought about converting Ultimate Psionics, or some lesser :)P) d20 psionics system to 5e? I'm still sort of nibbling around the edges of the 5e rules, and I never learned the 3e rules thoroughly. So I'm sort of skeptical of my own quick eyeball assessment that converting the powers and feats looks like a lot of easy work (I'm probably going to adapt 5e classes to use the UP powers and feats, using the UP classes as guides).
 

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Cyan Wisp

Explorer
Honestly, I think d20 psionics was just magic refluffed. What is so unique about it that it can't be folded into the existing spell system?

When I think of examples of the psychically endowed in film and literature (I'm going off the top of my head right now)...
Firestarter: pyrokineticist
Firestarter's dad: mental control
Harry Keogh: medium, mathemancy
Those people from Minority Report or guy from Dead Zone: seers
Bran Stark: warg
Charles Xavier: telepath
That guy from Species: empath
Carrie: telekinesis

...they seem to be one-trick ponies. You hear about mediums, not "mediums who also blow crap up, fly, augment body parts and go nuts at the prom covered in pig blood."

With this in mind, I'd rather see a return to 1e psionics where you had a talent or two and that's it. Maybe done through Feats (kind of like Magic Initiate).

That, or if we must have "wizard in funny clothes" Psion, do it as a Sorcerous Origin (perhaps in the style of the new Unearthed Arcana bonus themed spells sorcerers) with abilities related to reduced components and signature spells (like telekinesis).

My opinionated 2 cents. ;)
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
Cyan, I'm as opinionated as they come. Shoot fast and from the hip, my friend. :)

To answer your question, it's the little things, the subtle differences. And I confess, I'm actually planning to replace arcane and divine magic with psionics. And call the psionics magic. :) For a particular setting I'm writing up, anyway.

Yes, there are powers in UP that seem almost as wonky as spells in D&D. But overall, as a whole, I'm finding they just work for me better than Vancian spell slots. Starting with the power point system; a psionic can pump power points into an ability until his PP well runs dry. He can use any power he knows whenever he wants if he has the points available. There are practically no components, other than the occasional material component, it all comes from the user's brain.

Then there are the powers themselves. Telepathic powers are very prominent, which works with my favored concept of magic. And I just prefer how they're written to D&D spell write-ups. Again, it's the subtle things. I'm still reading through the thing, so maybe I'll have more concrete thoughts on the subject afterward. A big thematic difference for me between magic and psionics is that magic often seems to depend heavily on some kind of external intellect to power the effects, while psionics does not. A lot of spells are fire-and-forget, while fewer psionic powers are. E.g., animate object seems to rely on some kind of conjured intelligence to power the animated object. (Never mind that there's a similar power in UP, I'm trying to make a point here :p; Edit: also, concentration in 5e does seem like a big step in my favored psionic-y direction)

.they seem to be one-trick ponies. You hear about mediums, not "mediums who also blow crap up, fly, augment body parts and go nuts at the prom covered in pig blood."

Jedi display telekinesis, precognition and sixth sense, telepathy, mind trick, super-jump, super-speed, lightning projection, energy absorption and reflection, hyper-accuracy and skill boosting, speak with dead/living (edit: forgot blindsight)...and that's just off the top of my head from the films, I'm sure there's more in the wider Star Wars Universe. With a suite that broad you can shoehorn in pretty much anything and feel consistent about it.

Most of the UP classes seem to be written the way you mention though, and I'd like to eventually reflect that, but I also want to have versatile spellcasting classes.

Yes, it's just magic re-fluffed (and re-crunched, IMO), but that's the part that works for me. Psionic-y magic works for me, hand-wavy chanty magic, not so much. Then there's the familiarity factor. Magic has worked the way it has in D&D since I first played it as a teenager. It's very familiar. Psionic-y magic has a fresh, new, mysterious feel to it.
 
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Morlock

Banned
Banned
I should also add that, parallel to the familiarity thing, psionics systems tend to be written from the ground up to work as systems (usually to work with points, not slots), and to have no sacred cows (favorite spells from the days of yore that the players insist on including) to work around.

With regard to the conversion work on the powers themselves (the vast bulk of the work), I'm seeing two main tasks:

1: Convert damage.
2: Convert bonuses. Decide if a bonus should be a simple translation (+4 in UP to +3 in 5e, or whatever), or if it should deliver advantage/disadvantage or proficiency instead.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
By your own admission, you are unfamiliar with 5e mechanics and design, it would behoove you to take the time to study it and learn it before converting things. It may use a lot of the same old terminology and methods, but a lot of the balance has been changed, particularly around magic. Magic users no longer have to prepare spells in a certain slot anymore, they can cast any prepared spell in any slot they have available (that suits the spell), giving them many of the advantages of Psionics. Also the DMG provides a spell point system for those who don't like slots, which brings it even closer to psionics. I could easily see psionics introduced (as mentioned above by Cyan Wisp) as a Sorcerous Origin origin using spell points rather than slots, maybe with new "spells".
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
you are unfamiliar with 5e mechanics and design, it would behoove you to take the time to study it and learn it before converting things.

No doubt.

It may use a lot of the same old terminology and methods, but a lot of the balance has been changed, particularly around magic. Magic users no longer have to prepare spells in a certain slot anymore, they can cast any prepared spell in any slot they have available (that suits the spell), giving them many of the advantages of Psionics. Also the DMG provides a spell point system for those who don't like slots, which brings it even closer to psionics. I could easily see psionics introduced (as mentioned above by Cyan Wisp) as a Sorcerous Origin origin using spell points rather than slots, maybe with new "spells".

(At Higher Levels is another big move in the psionic-y direction)

Yeah, as you say, I have to get to know the systems and how they balance. As you say, a lot of that sounds like a move toward what I want. The usual criticism of spell point systems is that they boost the already-powerful spellcasting classes by making casters that much more flexible. I haven't heard anything about spellcasters being substantially more powerful (relative to other classes) in 5e than in previous editions, perhaps because the designers compensated elsewhere (e.g., concentration, damage caps on spells).

One thing I do like about free-forming slots over SP/PP is that it's straightforward to limit the fungibility. E.g., by ruling that casters can trade down, but not up - they can break a spell slot into lower-level slots, but they can't combine slots into higher-level ones. If I go with slots over points, I might as well just look at re-fluffing the system, dropping spells I don't like, rewriting others, and bringing bits from Ultimate Psionics that I still like.

So, keep this up and you guys will have talked me out of it. Mostly. :)
 
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Umbrathys

Explorer
My personal desire is to see psionic rules that are not just one more kind of magic. That seems so... ordinary... to me :) As if fantastic magic can be ordinary. One of the primary reasons I would like to see Wizards actually step up and develop psionic rules is that we might get something unique and evocative (being as they are professional game designers and all).
I personally like the idea of psionic characters that specialize in certain types of abilities, but that have the ability to dabble outside of their expertise. So, though I don't like the idea of "psionics is just magic", something more similar to the 5e version of wizard specialists. They have unique abilities, but they are NOT limited in what they can learn.
As to mechanics, I am personally trying to develop an idea where psionic powers require skill checks (so, you don't have to learn anything new :), where "mind tricks" cost 0 power points, devotions cost 1 power point (and 1 to scale), while sciences cost 2 (and 2 to scale).
So far, meh. I'm not a professional (not even an above average amateur :). I just hope this is definitely one of the "have to do" books that Wizards is secretly considering...
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
My personal desire is to see psionic rules that are not just one more kind of magic. That seems so... ordinary... to me As if fantastic magic can be ordinary.

I kinda parallel that, in wanting to overhaul/replace magic with something that works more like magic, even if I only wind up doing it mostly with fluff, and exiling some crunch to alternate systems (e.g., I think Animate Dead is more in the summoning/pact/priest realm than the "psionic magic-user" realm).

If charm person is any guide, I'm going to want to adapt the charm/mind control powers from UP, at least.

I sure wouldn't mind seeing a good Psionics book out of Wizards, either. Something that I like even better than UP, so I don't have to convert anything. It'd be awesome if they put out a good Dark Sun setting to go with it, too.

personally like the idea of psionic characters that specialize in certain types of abilities, but that have the ability to dabble outside of their expertise.

Same here. I have no problem making the concept of a versatile psionic class work for me, in fact that's its central appeal for me. I suppose from Cyan Wisps (perfectly valid, totally get what he was saying) preference or perspective, I want to fuse or synthesize D&D magic and psionics; make magic more like psionics, and psionics more like magic.

So, though I don't like the idea of "psionics is just magic", something more similar to the 5e version of wizard specialists.

Sorry, you lost me there; I don't know what you mean...

As to mechanics, I am personally trying to develop an idea where psionic powers require skill checks

Just a personal preference, but if I'm going to be rolling checks for every spell, I'm going to want to drop bookkeeping power points. Take Con loss when I miss a check, or something, instead. And if casters are rolling checks to cast spells, then I'm not going to want to roll saves for the targets all the time. And removing saves isn't going to go over well with players, I wouldn't think.
 

E

Elderbrain

Guest
Quick & dirty Psionics

The easy way: start with the Sorcerer class (renamed "Psion" or whatever you prefer), but use spell points and select spells that feel psionic for the class list. Since your re-designed "Sorceror" isn't really a Sorceror any more, you will want to create some new subclasses/paths for the Psion to take once he/she reaches 3rd level. Some possibilities include Telepath, Pyrokineticist, etc.


Alternatively, you could build a whole class from scratch (perhaps using the spell points rules as a guideline). But I tend to favor whatever solution gets the job done with the least amount of work on my part... :D
 


Morlock

Banned
Banned
Elderbrain, you make a good case. Warunsun, I think I gave the summary for that file a look a while ago and dismissed it as not what I wanted to do (reskinning), but after reading the replies here, I'm taking a look. *After taking a look* I like it, though there's several things I would change.

I wouldn't mind doing it the easy way, plus porting over the powers I want from UP. Would leave me more time to develop the setting.

Recommendations for how to hack monsters wouldn't go amiss. I was planning to leave them as-is and wing it.
 

Cyan Wisp

Explorer
I have to say, Morlock, you certainly are an affable chap. It seems like we are all trying to dissuade you from your goal! :eek:

Good catch on the Jedi-as-psion. How could I overlook that. Out of interest, did you ever encounter 2e D&D psionics? Now that was a unique system.

So, you are looking to make magic into less of a chant-y, gesture-y, component-y discipline. I can fully understand that. It always seemed a little weird for sorcerers, for example, to have all these innate powers and yet they still needed to have bits of fluff and bat poop to do anything, along with precise magical incantations and gesticulations.

I reckon Elderbrain's got the right idea - the sorcerer is the right design space for psions. Swap 'em out!

It might even give them a bit more of a niche and cool flavour - take away components from their spells, or make them simple utterances of their will rather than proper spells, like "Eat fire, gobbo scum!" as the fireball launches or "come, break bread with me" or whatever for charm person, operating kind of like a Kiai shout in martial arts - the power is in the focus of the utterance, not the exact words; or gathering and releasing energy kind of gestures like those airbender guys rather than precise rune tracing and ley line plucking. Leave the ancient esoteric crap to the wizards and channel raw power, baby!
 

Staffan

Legend
The easy way: start with the Sorcerer class (renamed "Psion" or whatever you prefer), but use spell points and select spells that feel psionic for the class list. Since your re-designed "Sorceror" isn't really a Sorceror any more, you will want to create some new subclasses/paths for the Psion to take once he/she reaches 3rd level. Some possibilities include Telepath, Pyrokineticist, etc.
IMO, a carefully built sorcerer with a custom power source would work well for a one-shot where you want one of the characters to be a "psion". But it would not be satisfactory for a setting like Dark Sun, or an Eberron game with a heavy Kalashtar/Inspired/Aberrant presence, because there's not enough depth to it. There are not enough spells on the sorcerer list to support psions with different themes.
 

Dan Hass

First Post
Archtype

5th edition lends itself to using the existing classes and then adding archetypes. And WotC seems to favor this approach. It is what they did with favored soul (a sorcerous origin) and artificer (a wizard specialization). If there is a significant demand for psionics, I would expect it to be one of those (sorcerous origin seeming more likely to me). This seems pretty ripe for a Unearthed Arcana segment.

If one examines the various MM entries where traits are labelled "Psionics" (like the gith), they are very much just spells that are powered by "psionics". I often use "psionics" in my NPCs. For example, in the adventure I just put on drivethrurpg.com I have a Veteran with psionic traits - "Psychic Assault. As a bonus action, a creature of Jaymes’ choice that he can see within 60 ft. must succeed on a DC14 Intelligence saving throw or be knocked prone and incapacitated for one round."
 

Another approach I'd consider would be a Monk subclass. Sorry, I don't have a cool name for it.

Anyway, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to substitute spells/powers with a psionic theme for the abilities listed under the "Way of Four Elements" subclass. Write up a list, use the rules for Ki to power the abilities, assign level requirements, and you're pretty much finished.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
Mechanically, the sorcerer seems to fit very well. In a lot of fiction a psi can do some things all the time, while other things are limited by fatigue. So a telepathic sorceror-psion would have read minds as his cantrip, he can do it all day without effort, while a mental attack power would take a spell slot. The telekineticist gets prestidigitation, etc. You would need to create a bunch of new "spells" to fill out the powers though. I would also build in a requirement that for each spell you get you must have already have a spell one level lower in that area (telepath, telekintist, empath, clairvoyant, medium, precog, pyrokinetic, whatever-you-call-the strength-enhancement-guy, etc) to enforce a theme while still allowing variety. The sorcery points fit well mechanically too, though I would probably add some psi-specific ones.
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
I have to say, Morlock, you certainly are an affable chap. It seems like we are all trying to dissuade you from your goal!

Hey, good advice is good advice. I'm never opposed to being talked out of working.

did you ever encounter 2e D&D psionics? Now that was a unique system.

2e was the last system I mastered, if you don't count all the option stuff (aka 2.5). But I am ashamed to admit, I can't recall anything about 2e psionics. I think I owned the book, but that was going on 30 years ago. I want to say they were presented much like spells, in that there was a big list of them that looked a lot like spell descriptions. But that's about it.

It might even give them a bit more of a niche and cool flavour - take away components from their spells, or make them simple utterances of their will rather than proper spells, like "Eat fire, gobbo scum!" as the fireball launches or "come, break bread with me" or whatever for charm person, operating kind of like a Kiai shout in martial arts - the power is in the focus of the utterance, not the exact words; or gathering and releasing energy kind of gestures like those airbender guys rather than precise rune tracing and ley line plucking. Leave the ancient esoteric crap to the wizards and channel raw power, baby!

I see them doing it all. Psionic-y wizards, who go all zen and commit their knowledge to writing, leaving vast libraries for students; psionic-y sorcerers, who are more like Jedi, in that they're mystics, too, but not so academic about it - somewhere between the cerebral and the visceral; psionic-y wild talents, who are all viscera. The wizards have the widest array of powers to choose from, and get more of them, but they sacrifice the depth that other practitioners can apply to their less numerous powers, and the amount of spell points they can throw around. The sorcerers have a more middling selection of powers, and get fewer of them, but they get to fully exploit those powers and get more spell points (they spend more time focusing their chi or whatever, as opposed to exploring new abilities). The wild talents get the fewest powers, but they get tons of spell points to spam them with, and can really explore every facet of the powers they do have.

But really, in terms of setting I conceptualize all "adepts" or "practitioners" or what have you as being a single class; the people who can tap into "the force" or magic or psionics. They might fall into "traditions" like in WW's Mage series, but they're all doing fundamentally the same thing. I also like the idea of splitting off the effects that logically imply some kind of animating intelligence into a "summoning" category. Stuff that seems a bit far out can be explained by the adept calling a normally incorporeal or extradimensional being to act as proxy.

Your kiai thing is as good a defense of verbal components as I've seen. Incidentally, I've always been into the "voice" school, and was disappointed not to find a d20 prestige class that works like Saruman, or those with the "voice" in Dune.

Another approach I'd consider would be a Monk subclass. Sorry, I don't have a cool name for it.

That reminds me, the monk really works for the setting I'm writing up, I'll have to de-un-person it. I usually keep the monk out of sight and out of mind, because I find it so out of place in my preferred D&D milieu.

Anyway, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to substitute spells/powers with a psionic theme for the abilities listed under the "Way of Four Elements" subclass. Write up a list, use the rules for Ki to power the abilities, assign level requirements, and you're pretty much finished.

Thanks for the tip, it sounds like maybe something you want for the "psychic warrior" type?

You would need to create a bunch of new "spells" to fill out the powers though. I would also build in a requirement that for each spell you get you must have already have a spell one level lower in that area (telepath, telekintist, empath, clairvoyant, medium, precog, pyrokinetic, whatever-you-call-the strength-enhancement-guy, etc) to enforce a theme while still allowing variety. The sorcery points fit well mechanically too, though I would probably add some psi-specific ones.

My plan is to match up every power (from UP for sure, from other sources maybe) with a 5e spell, then take a look at converting each UP power that doesn't have a 5e equivalent, and altering the 5e spells when I like the UP power better.

Edit: I was in the process of copy-pasting UP powers into text files and cleaning them up to be used in Indesign, but since this thread I stopped. Point is, I was about halfway through with the job and UP was on track for just over 400 powers. I did a quick and dirty check of a 5e spell list (including all published material, not just PHB), and 5e had almost exactly the same number of spells, somewhere between 400 and 410.
 
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