Coolest. Gaming Set-up. Evar.
- Thread starter Steel_Wind
- Start date
Cthulhu's Librarian
First Post
Wow. WOW.
I want one. But first I need a laptop...
Very cool setup. I wish I could do the same, although my wife might really start to believe I'm crazy, instead of just thinking it on occasion.
Very cool setup. I wish I could do the same, although my wife might really start to believe I'm crazy, instead of just thinking it on occasion.
Krypter
Explorer
That is a cool setup, but I'm a miniatures-hater and I'm still not convinced. NWN may be good for generic dungeon-hacks, but it can't imitate the fantastic glory of a setting like Planescape, where my players last month visited a burg perched on a huge stalagmite column which had titanic blades and chains spinning around it generating steam power. How would you ever show that in NWN? The place looks 10x better in my imagination that in any generic NWN tileset.
Also, there's the perennial problem of not having enough miniatures. You'd have to spend a fortune to get all the miniatures for an exotic fantasy setting, some of which might not even exist. Are there miniatures for the Howler on Pandemomium? How about modrons on Mechanus? I doubt it. So you end up substituting some ridiculous miniature that doesn't look like what you described. Your imagination can do a lot better than that.
Nice work, though. And it's great that your players are dedicated enough to put that much money and effort into their game.
Also, there's the perennial problem of not having enough miniatures. You'd have to spend a fortune to get all the miniatures for an exotic fantasy setting, some of which might not even exist. Are there miniatures for the Howler on Pandemomium? How about modrons on Mechanus? I doubt it. So you end up substituting some ridiculous miniature that doesn't look like what you described. Your imagination can do a lot better than that.
Nice work, though. And it's great that your players are dedicated enough to put that much money and effort into their game.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Krypter said:
Well, well, lookie here ...
http://www.city-of-doors.com/
So, would you like to take your foot out of your mouth now, or would you like a little extra-planar help, berk?
Krypter
Explorer
Patryn of Elvenshae said:
No need to be rude, Patryn. I already know about that project. Notice that it isn't finished yet, and that it only deals with Sigil, not the entirety of the planes? Nothing about Pandemonium or Mechanus there. It still doesn't address my problem of how would you present the wonders of the planes outside of a generic tileset, or where you would get miniatures of exotic planar creatures. Some may exist, some may not. That by itself limits your options, whereas your imagination is limitless.
Steel_Wind said:
While that setup is really spiffy, it sure doesn't constitute a good reason to reconsider minis. As an extension to a part of the game you already know you like, it's cool. As an experiement into something you don't know you'll like, it is far, far too expensive.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Krypter said:
Likewise, potblack.
You said it couldn't be done.
YOU said:
Not only can it be done, it is being done.
Krypter
Explorer
Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Saying something can't be done is not being rude. You, on the other hand, are being patronizing and condescending in the extreme, with hardly a thought to actually refuting my points.
Once again, I repeat this: Is anyone replicating the Planescape setting in whole? No. City of Doors is only about Sigil, a tiny fraction of the planescape universe. Without sounding too critical of CoDI, it too is a pale imitation of the drawings and descriptions of PS in the setting material, and is no substitute for a good DM's description and ad-hoc storytelling. You should have argued for Planescape Torment, as it comes closest and does a far better job in that regard.
So now how *are* you replicating the Tower of Khin-OIn in the howling waste, or making a NWN tileset for the chain-city of Jangling Hiter, hmm?
Secondly, the miniatures problem still stands, and you haven't addressed it at all.
Criticism is not rudeness, but being insulting without addressing my arguments is.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
At the OP:
That's cooler than ninja pirates. I'm not sure if it's cooler than ninja pirate robots with dinosaurs, but it just might be.
You're right.
NWN can never imitate Planescape. It didn't murder a setting with REAL fantastic glory so it could rehash it as sepia-toned planarpunk.
Spelljammer, on the other hand, would be absolutely amazing with this setup. You could do asteroids, the curve of planets, even large "stationary" objects like the Spelljammer itself or a big dwarven citadel.
That's cooler than ninja pirates. I'm not sure if it's cooler than ninja pirate robots with dinosaurs, but it just might be.
Krypter said:
You're right.
NWN can never imitate Planescape. It didn't murder a setting with REAL fantastic glory so it could rehash it as sepia-toned planarpunk.
Spelljammer, on the other hand, would be absolutely amazing with this setup. You could do asteroids, the curve of planets, even large "stationary" objects like the Spelljammer itself or a big dwarven citadel.
Steel_Wind
Legend
Let me address a few issues that have popped up here:
First...
Projecting on a whiteboard certainly would work well. We have experimented with projection surfaces, trying a white piece of foamcore, a white blind and our biege Battlemat.
It's a function of the brightness of your projector and ambient lighting in the room. We prefer to use a surface with a 1" grid on it already as that makes use in game easy. More white reflective the surface = higher gain.
In term of being able to use markers - I don't see why not. You might want to play with the color of the ink - but it will work in most cases.
Might I suggest you are missing the obvious though? If you are using NWN, why not simply use the creature models in the game? You will have a ready made supply of hundreds of creatures, limitless PC races and you will never, ever run out. There is nothing more you will need to buy.
Admittedly, you can't use something like Tabletop Mapper with NWN digital minis, but if cost of miniatures is your concern, an all digital solution is possible.
If you have a SVGA TV-Out port on your laptop - I am pretty much CERTAIN you can extend your desktop to it under Win XP. It's a standard approach of the chipset makers now.
This was a concern of ours initially too. We thought of trying this as a rear projection setup. There are some technical concerns though with this approach.
The biggest issue is throw distance of your projector. Generally speaking, the shorter the distance between the projector and the projection surface, the smaller the image that is being displayed. Results vary highly from projector model to model though.
So putting it directly on the floor underneath your surface and projecting up is likely with most projectors to make an inadequate sized image (but see below)
You can skin this cat another way though. You can install a mirror at an angle below your table and then put the projector a ways off on a stool or some such, so you are increasing your throw distance. This is an approach that another group uses. Here is his set up:
The big problem is the big ass mirror under the table, which restricts movement around the table and potentially poses a serious danger to stray feet.
You also have light loss on the mirror and the projection surface. This group uses simple paper to reflect the image. A piece of buffed Lexan would probably work better and result in less light loss.
Still - depending on your gaming setup, it can be cool. Here is a more typical use of their table during play:
I prefer our own setup as it provides for a more intimate central table. The miniatures do not interefere with projection at all by the way - and hands over the table is something we don't even notice during play - so this is really not a concern. I admit I had the same worry initially - but it has proved to be no concern at all during actual use.
OK. Now THIS has serious possibilities.
Let me explain what the main issues are here with projectors being used for this purpose. You care about the following elements of a projector:
1 - Brightness of image:. You want a minimum of 1200 ANSI lumens. Without it - you will be gaming in very low ambient light, too low really. You will note that in all the reviews the ANSI lumens is not noted for this unit. That suggests to me that this is a dim unit, relatively speaking.
2 - Minimum Throw Distance: The bigger the image with the smaller the throw distance, the better (in general). You can have your picture too big though, which will start to make the image visibly pixellated. Generally speaking, that's a nice problem to be able to have though as the real problem is an image which is too small. If this projector can do 40" at a distance of three feet - it would be VERY possible to use it directly under the table. Or put it over the table if you prefer - either way - very nice.
3- Bulb life: Most modern DLP projectors (this is different from an LCD projector, although analogous) have sophisticated bulbs in them which include aligned optics in the halogen bulb. They are complicated lil gadgets - damnably bright - and VERY expensive to replace. Cost is about $300-$400 to replace a bulb, depending on the unit. Yup. That much. Bulb life is about 2000 hours on most units, 3,000 hours on the newer models.
In the unit above, the lighting is said to be provided by LED's not a halogen bulb. This is an extremely stable light source so bulb life is practically "forever". That's very cool. However, using LED's as a light source is very limited by their brightness.
I would be flabbergast if you can get 1200 ANSI out of an LED lit DLP projector. If anyone can track down the brightness of this unit to report back - I want to know about it. If it is rated at 1200 or over - I'll buy one just to use at home and as a back up projector.
4 - Size of the Unit: Our Optoma EZpro 750 projector is about the size of a clock radio ca. 1980. It is very light. The newer the DLP, the smaller they seem to be getting.
Compare that to an old LCD projector. Those things were monsters. Here is a pic of the one Jans Carton's group uses:
His LCD is also old and relatively dim at about 800 ANSI. They use special lighting in the basement room their projector is located in (you can see the LED light strips) as a result.
A small DLP can be lugged around and placed over a living room or kitchen table with no problem and you can use an indirect support method like our pole. For an older LCD projector like Jans, that puppy needs to be bolted down and its not going anywhere.
My guess is that most wives are not going to put up with one of those over the dining room table
5 - Resolution of Image: You want a minimum of 800x600 and if it scales up to 1024x768 or higher, so much the better. This pocket projector appears to be adequate if a little fuzzy at 800x600. It's one of those things you have to see "live in concert" to get a feel for - but it sounds ok.
I will make some more inquiries into the Mitsubishi PocketProjector, as its size, portability, bulb life, minimum throw and resolution all appear to be IDEAL for a gaming application. Moreoever, its cost, brand new at MSRP, ROCKS. The real issue - and the one that concerns me most - is brightness of the image.
If the company is not touting its ANSI Lumens brightness, you can expect that it is not very good. How bad is the real issue. But if it's 1200 or higher - this would appear to be an AWESOME unit.
Nice thing is - the tech only gets better folks. If this one is not bright enough for your purpose - just wait a bit - they'll get brighter.
Lastly, the technology behind the DLP projector is what is making all these devices so cheap. They are stealing the market from LCD projectors now and as the quality increases, my expectation is there won't BE an LCD projector market in a few years. It will all move to DLP.
And yes, we are starting a website for projection Gaming table purposes at DLA next month. Who knows what else a group of 30 software developers and 3d artists might have up their sleeve for this sort of thing?
First...
Projecting on a whiteboard certainly would work well. We have experimented with projection surfaces, trying a white piece of foamcore, a white blind and our biege Battlemat.
It's a function of the brightness of your projector and ambient lighting in the room. We prefer to use a surface with a 1" grid on it already as that makes use in game easy. More white reflective the surface = higher gain.
In term of being able to use markers - I don't see why not. You might want to play with the color of the ink - but it will work in most cases.
Might I suggest you are missing the obvious though? If you are using NWN, why not simply use the creature models in the game? You will have a ready made supply of hundreds of creatures, limitless PC races and you will never, ever run out. There is nothing more you will need to buy.
Admittedly, you can't use something like Tabletop Mapper with NWN digital minis, but if cost of miniatures is your concern, an all digital solution is possible.
If you have a SVGA TV-Out port on your laptop - I am pretty much CERTAIN you can extend your desktop to it under Win XP. It's a standard approach of the chipset makers now.
This was a concern of ours initially too. We thought of trying this as a rear projection setup. There are some technical concerns though with this approach.
The biggest issue is throw distance of your projector. Generally speaking, the shorter the distance between the projector and the projection surface, the smaller the image that is being displayed. Results vary highly from projector model to model though.
So putting it directly on the floor underneath your surface and projecting up is likely with most projectors to make an inadequate sized image (but see below)
You can skin this cat another way though. You can install a mirror at an angle below your table and then put the projector a ways off on a stool or some such, so you are increasing your throw distance. This is an approach that another group uses. Here is his set up:
The big problem is the big ass mirror under the table, which restricts movement around the table and potentially poses a serious danger to stray feet.
You also have light loss on the mirror and the projection surface. This group uses simple paper to reflect the image. A piece of buffed Lexan would probably work better and result in less light loss.
Still - depending on your gaming setup, it can be cool. Here is a more typical use of their table during play:
I prefer our own setup as it provides for a more intimate central table. The miniatures do not interefere with projection at all by the way - and hands over the table is something we don't even notice during play - so this is really not a concern. I admit I had the same worry initially - but it has proved to be no concern at all during actual use.
OK. Now THIS has serious possibilities.
Let me explain what the main issues are here with projectors being used for this purpose. You care about the following elements of a projector:
1 - Brightness of image:. You want a minimum of 1200 ANSI lumens. Without it - you will be gaming in very low ambient light, too low really. You will note that in all the reviews the ANSI lumens is not noted for this unit. That suggests to me that this is a dim unit, relatively speaking.
2 - Minimum Throw Distance: The bigger the image with the smaller the throw distance, the better (in general). You can have your picture too big though, which will start to make the image visibly pixellated. Generally speaking, that's a nice problem to be able to have though as the real problem is an image which is too small. If this projector can do 40" at a distance of three feet - it would be VERY possible to use it directly under the table. Or put it over the table if you prefer - either way - very nice.
3- Bulb life: Most modern DLP projectors (this is different from an LCD projector, although analogous) have sophisticated bulbs in them which include aligned optics in the halogen bulb. They are complicated lil gadgets - damnably bright - and VERY expensive to replace. Cost is about $300-$400 to replace a bulb, depending on the unit. Yup. That much. Bulb life is about 2000 hours on most units, 3,000 hours on the newer models.
In the unit above, the lighting is said to be provided by LED's not a halogen bulb. This is an extremely stable light source so bulb life is practically "forever". That's very cool. However, using LED's as a light source is very limited by their brightness.
I would be flabbergast if you can get 1200 ANSI out of an LED lit DLP projector. If anyone can track down the brightness of this unit to report back - I want to know about it. If it is rated at 1200 or over - I'll buy one just to use at home and as a back up projector.
4 - Size of the Unit: Our Optoma EZpro 750 projector is about the size of a clock radio ca. 1980. It is very light. The newer the DLP, the smaller they seem to be getting.
Compare that to an old LCD projector. Those things were monsters. Here is a pic of the one Jans Carton's group uses:
His LCD is also old and relatively dim at about 800 ANSI. They use special lighting in the basement room their projector is located in (you can see the LED light strips) as a result.
A small DLP can be lugged around and placed over a living room or kitchen table with no problem and you can use an indirect support method like our pole. For an older LCD projector like Jans, that puppy needs to be bolted down and its not going anywhere.
My guess is that most wives are not going to put up with one of those over the dining room table
5 - Resolution of Image: You want a minimum of 800x600 and if it scales up to 1024x768 or higher, so much the better. This pocket projector appears to be adequate if a little fuzzy at 800x600. It's one of those things you have to see "live in concert" to get a feel for - but it sounds ok.
I will make some more inquiries into the Mitsubishi PocketProjector, as its size, portability, bulb life, minimum throw and resolution all appear to be IDEAL for a gaming application. Moreoever, its cost, brand new at MSRP, ROCKS. The real issue - and the one that concerns me most - is brightness of the image.
If the company is not touting its ANSI Lumens brightness, you can expect that it is not very good. How bad is the real issue. But if it's 1200 or higher - this would appear to be an AWESOME unit.
Nice thing is - the tech only gets better folks. If this one is not bright enough for your purpose - just wait a bit - they'll get brighter.
Lastly, the technology behind the DLP projector is what is making all these devices so cheap. They are stealing the market from LCD projectors now and as the quality increases, my expectation is there won't BE an LCD projector market in a few years. It will all move to DLP.
And yes, we are starting a website for projection Gaming table purposes at DLA next month. Who knows what else a group of 30 software developers and 3d artists might have up their sleeve for this sort of thing?
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