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Core Classes In My Setting

EarthsShadow:
It should be potable by the end of August*, with all of the needed crunch and a useful amount of fluff by then. If you want to see the unfinished, messy project-in-progress (instead of the relatively finished stuff I post here for comment), you can check out the Europ website.

It's got complete stuff, stuff I'm still working on, etc.

For reference, I've completed the races, Int/Wis/Cha definitions, basic skill rules (still working on alchemy and a possible martial arts addition), level advancement guidelines, and core magic rules (but no spell lists). I'm still working on core classes (here and now), magic items for Europ, combat (although I've about nailed it - just not on the website), psi (core rules somewhat complete) and creatures.

Anything in particular you want to see?

* may be delayed if WotC picks the setting I sent them (not Europ).
 

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Sorry for the shameless bump, but I was really hoping for some criticism! No comments from anyone? I know it's not that awe inspiring ;)!
 

It should be pointed out that your alternate hit point mechanic will not work very well with the magic system you propose.

The hit point mechanic will ensure that even a 20th level fighter will rarely (almost never) have more than 38 hit points. Assuming that caster level is class level (I saw no reference to caster level in the magic document), a fifth level wizard focussed in transmutation will drop him in two rounds almost every time with no save. (Haste, magic missile, magic missile, magic missile). The effect of an Ice Storm (5d6, no save (avg 18 points of damage)) would be far more hideous than it is now. The inflict wounds spells above moderate will become effectively slay living spells and disintegrate will be instant death whether or not you make the save.

Retooling hit points would also require a complete retooling of the magic system or spells that are expected to hurt but not kill characters of equal level (fireball, lightning bolt, searing light, ice storm, cone of cold, shout, horrid wilting, etc) will obliterate everything in their path.

The hit point mechanic will also run into trouble with plain ordinary weapons. Your typical half orc barbarian 4 (18 strength on 25 point buy, weapon focus, masterwork weapon) will have an attack bonus of +10 (or +12 when raging) for 2d6+6 (or 1d12+6 if wielding a greataxe instead of a greatsword) or 2d6+9 when raging. Since the typical (14 con) 4th level fighter will have only 18 hit points under this system and the defense bonus won't make much of a difference to the fact that the barbarian will usually hit (this gets worse if the barbarian is blessed, or bull's strengthed), the barbarian will often kill the 4th level fighter in the first hit (average damage 13 or 16 when raging--slightly above average damage ends the fight). Consequently, combat will often simply be a matter of initiative. That's not very exciting or interesting.

Finally, the concentration mechanic replacing spell slots/day will also create problems for a magic system that is balanced on the assumption that certain spells (with short durations) cannot be constantly running. A fifth level character with arcane magic ability under this system, for instance, could expect to constantly have a shield spell in effect. Similarly, a seventh or eighth level caster could expect to constantly have shield, mage armor, protection from evil, bull's strength, cat's grace, endurance, owl's wisdom, eagle's splendor, fox's cunning, protection from arrows, endure elements, and blur running. Needless to say, that's not possible under the current rules since casters don't have enough slots to activate all the second level attribute buffs or all versions of endure elements constantly and the short durations of shield, protection from evil, etc. keep them from being constantly active either.

I would expect that the end result of the magic system modification will be that characters will constantly be buffed. Combined with the hit point reduction, it will mean that combat will usually simply be a matter of initiative.
 

Elder-Basilisk:
Thanks for the comments! Although I chew on them a lot below, I really appreciate the fact that you forced me to think each aspect through!

Regarding the spell system... In practice, perpetually recasting short duration spells simply does not work, unless you are very high level and the spell is very low level. Exhaustion simply sets in too fast!

Regarding hit points... hm. Lots to think about here.

Spell Damages

Ick :(.

I suppose I could borrow a page from Kenneth S Hood's suggestions: Restrict damage dice to the spell level. Thus, a level-3 fireball would do a maximum of 3d6 damage. This has the advantage of not requiring a massive rewrite. I need to think some more, though. Suggestions welcome!

Normal Weapon Damages

This does not result in much of a difference. To illustrate, I'll borrow Grug & Bob. We took away Bob's weapon, so Grug can just beat on him. Let's see how long Bob lasts!

Grug
Half Orc
Fighter 4 (see Barbarian notes)
STR 18
Greatsword (masterwork)
Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Total Attack Bonus: +10 (+4 Fighter, +4 STR, +1 focus, +1 masterwork)
Damage: 2d6+6 (+4 STR, +2 specialization)

Bob
Human
Fighter 4
CON 14
DEX 14
Chainmail
Large Wooden Shield
Hit Points (Mine): 18 (14 CON, +4 Fighter)
Hit Points (Normal): 34 (10+7+8+7)
AC (Mine): 23 (10 base, +2 DEX, +5 chainmail, +2 shield, +4 Fighter)
AC (Normal): 19 (10 base, +2 DEX, +5 chainmail, +2 shield)

My System:
Grug has a 35% chance of hitting Bob, and a 6% chance of killing Bob in one blow (including critical hit). Two strikes will almost certainly kill Bob, however. Over 5.4 attacks, Bob is certain to die.

The Normal System:
Grug has a 55% chance of hitting Bob and 3% chance of killing Bob in one blow (including critical hit). Three strikes will almost certainly kill Bob, however. Over 5.3 attacks, Bob is certain to die.

The barbarian rage ability increases the speed with which Grug kills Bob in either system, as follows...

My System:
Grug has a 45% chance of hitting Bob, and a 21% chance of killing Bob in one blow (including critical hit). Once again, two strikes will almost certainly kill Bob. Over 3.5 attacks, Bob is certain to die.

The Normal System:
Grug has a 65% chance of hitting Bob and 5% chance of killing Bob in one blow (including critical hit). Three strikes will almost certainly kill Bob, as usual. Over 4.4 attacks, Bob is certain to die.
 

Spell damages: I don't think you'll be able to avoid a complete rewrite without eliminating damaging spells. From what I've seen (not that I've used it) Ken Hood's system works because magic is very very rare and thus the imbalances don't come up too much. The problem is that limiting the damage dice won't adequately account for most of the spells.

Summon Monster I-IX will cause problems because high damage monsters (dire wolves, dire bears, crocodiles, dire tigers, greater elementals, etc) are much much much much more deadly on a fixed hit point system. Heck, even the celestial/fiendish smite ability will cause instant kills often enough.

Spells like Ice storm will become much more powerful since their limited damage is not a factor when hit points are lower (and the damage limitation you proposed won't hurt them much--Ice storm would still do 4d6 damage--just a reduction of 3.5 points of average damage) and the lack of a save will be much more significant when they can potentially kill a character.

Similarly spells with damage as a secondary effect (phantasmal killer, slay living, destruction, disintegrate, etc) will be much more deadly than they're supposed to be unless that damage is toned down to well below the cap.

Normal weapons: I think you're underestimating the problem. According to your figures (which I don't think are quite right--Grug should have about a 3% chance to kill Bob in one hit because he will only confirm the crit 65% of the time) the chance of a raging Grug scoring a one hit kill is more than 4 times as high in your system. That in and of itself would add much more randomness to the system, making it quite likely that over the course of several sessions, every front line character would be killed at least once in the surprise round.

But that's not the primary issue. Looking at your figures, the average survival time is very similar at an 18 strength but rapidly deviates from the normal D&D model when strengths hit 22 (with rage). Consider that Grug in the example is not really min-maxed very much. Grug started with a 15 strength modified to 17 for being a half-orc and then modified to 18 at 4th level. Slap a Bull's strength spell on Grug and the one hit kill percentage will probably approach 50. Allow Grug to start out with a 19 or a 20 strength, and the rage figures are your starting point. Give Grug a sorceror level for true strike (actually, I guess in your system, Grug could spend skill points on this and wouldn't need to nerf his BAB or hit points) and the power attack feat and the one hit kill percentage will probably be 95% (although on the second round).

If you start buffing Grug in other ways, the same thing will happen. Give Grug a flaming weapon or worse still, a holy weapon (if Bob is evil) and all Grug has to do is hit. Stack a prayer spell and a bardsong and Grug is hitting much more often. It will be very difficult to keep Bob's armor class high enough that Grug will have difficulty hitting without giving Bob lots of magic items.

And, of course, if Grug wins initiative, Bob doesn't get his dex bonus. This will make it even easier for Grug to hit--especially if Grug charges. Using the rage example, Grug will have a 65% chance to hit Bob if he partial charges in a surprise round. And he need only do 2 points above average damage to drop Bob in a single hit. If Grug has great cleave, there's a reasonable chance that a raging Grug could drop the entire party in the surprise round. Now that won't usually happen, but even one out of every 20 encounters ending that way will be a very bad thing for a game.
 

Elder-Basilisk:
Firstly, thanks for your very thoughtful reply! This is exactly what I was hoping for - since I wrote these in a fit of inspiration, I was pretty sure I'd overlooked stuff... and I did! :D

Anyway... a few potential changes:

Firstly, doubling the hit points seems to work rather well (CON x2 + 2 hp per fighter level) for the specific objections. However, this also makes the low level damage spells much less useful compared to a fighter. I would be interested in your thoughts on this.

Secondly, Great Cleave should not be in the skill point list. It is extraordinary, and should require a feat in order to gain. That was an oversight on my part (which does not impact your points; I'm just mentioning it here).

I've editted my posts to include both the original and revised version of the above, so we have a record of where it's coming from :).

As you said, buffing effects are definitely improved in this system. This is at least partly because the buffing was originally designed to allow characters to increase their damage output as they increased in level, to account for the massive increase in hit points that also occurred!

Can't edit one without editting the other :(.

On the other hand, buffing occurs both ways. If Grug gets access to prayer spells, bard songs, etc., then so does Bob. In general, I'm ignoring bonuses to hit because there are just as many bonuses to avoid... it's bonuses to damage that are worrisome, as Bob has few choices to reduce damage taken.

Other than doubling hit points, one possible fix would be to simply provide access to hit point buffing effects (such as temporary damage resistance spells, a barbarian-like DR feat, the Toughness hit point feat, etc.).
 

After doubling the hit points, it'll probably work pretty well for PC race vs. PC race encounters. However, I'm not so sure it'll work well for PC vs. monster encounters. An (advanced) Athach with +15 to hit on five attacks dealing an average of 10 points of damage per hit and with 200 hit points will munch through PCs even more quickly than it does under the normal system (In fact, it'll probably drop one or two 7th level PCs per round instead of 1 every two rounds (as in the current system)). Similarly, a troll which routinely inflicts 40+ points of damage per round will be much more deadly.

As to buffs, they do go both ways but attack buffs will be more prevalent under your system than AC buffs. Your system makes it easy to cast low level spells multiple times so spells with multi-hour durations will be very easy to cast. Spells with minute/level durations will not be cast long term. In the system, however, attack/damage buffs are more efficient than AC buffs.

At low levels, there are three long duration defensive buffs that I can think of:
Mage Armor
Cat's Grace
Magic Vestment

There are a couple of mid duration buffs that could be kept running (although at some risk of exhaustion):
Protection From Arrows
Magic Circle Vs. Alignment

On the other hand, the following long duration offensive buffs will be readily available:
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Greater Magic Weapon

At the mid duration:
Keen Edge

Pound for pound, bull's strength is more effective offensively than cat's grace is defensively since the dex bonus is limited by the armor a character wears (thus limiting cat's grace's effect in many situations) but the attack bonus from bull's strength isn't. Greater Magic Weapon is somewhat more effective than magic vestment since it adds to both attack and damage.

The situation where the whole buff system favors offense most decisively however is ranged combat. Since Greater Magic Weapon stacks on weapons and arrows and Cat's Grace's attack bonus is not limited by armor, it is likely that ranged attackers will have an even easier time slicing through their opposition.

Also note that while Protection from arrows and magic circle will be very effective spells, keen edge will probably double the one hit kill rate under this system.
 

Elder-Basilisk:
I meant new buffs - ones that specifically target reducing damage, rather than increasing AC.

The doubling hit points will work just fine for monsters... in Europ. For Forgotten Realms monsters, I refer you to my very first post, in which I say "These classes are balanced for the Europ setting, which is slightly lower fantasy than the standard rules. I've included notes on how to beef them up for Forgotten Realms and other standard-rules settings. Feel free to comment on the Europ version or the beefed version!" In the beefed version of the classes, you use hit dice instead of the CONx2 system. So against the (advanced) Athach, the PCs would be using hit dice.
 

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