Core Rogue Build
- Thread starter Zulgyan
- Start date
RedFox
First Post
I'm no expert like the optimizer folks, but I gotta say that an elf rogue is a lot of fun. You get that automatic search check for secret doors, a virtual Alertness Feat, the ability to see in the dark (sorta), long sword and bow proficiency (TWF with longsword and shortsword for your rogue is a decent option), and you only need 4 hours of rest per day which gives you more time to get into trouble.
Plus it makes more sense when you get the X of Elvenkind items.
Plus it makes more sense when you get the X of Elvenkind items.
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Crothian said:
I agree! If you're going PH only take a look at some of the "skill" feats like Stealthy, Persuasive, etc. Find a concept that fits one of them, then build around that.
You could do someone who specializes in "covers", or locks, or pilfering. You could as someone said by 6th level have Spring Attack (+4 BAB req). A rogue's point is...skill points and being nimble. Play those things up.
Tumble (1/2 movement (15' normally))behind whoever the fighter is in melee with, flank for Sneak Attacks, attack once, then finish your tumbling movement with Spring Attack to get out of melee again.
Be a bored city noble, disowned by their family for his dishonest ways. You're high talking, everyone on the streets knows you by sight (and you wouldn't have it any other way). use the social skills, pretend to be honest and happy, but maybe you've got a mean streak. Or maybe you really are just carefree (even with other peoples goods/items) and can talk yourself out of any bind...
I build my characters from the concept up though. I know what I want the character to be like, then I take the rules to make it so...
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Ye Golden Rogue Rules:
1/ Thou shalt not take level 20 of Rogue. That last level is worthless.
2/ If multiclassing, thou shalt try to take a total of 10, 13, 16 or 19 levels of Rogue. Thou shalt not take 12 or 14. 18 is right out.
3/ Thou shalt either find a way to make thyself invisible (via Use Magic Device and a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of blinking) or to get thyself a lot of attacks on a flank (via the Two Weapon Fighting chain of feats or a bunch of natural weapons).
4/ Thou shalt have tricks on hand for use in situations where thou cannot sneak attack, such as when faced with undead, golems or oozes.
5/ Thou shalt not overlook the humble dagger, for it deals both slashing and piercing damage, and it is both a melee and a ranged weapon. Also, it granteth thou a +2 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal it from the Spot checks of thy enemy, the city guardsman. Thou shalt remember that most of thy damage is going to come from Sneak Attack anyway, so who careth about the weapon's damage die? Not thee, that is for certain.
5b/ Quickdraw maketh thy daggers fly all the faster, and worketh nicely with thine Two Weapon Fighting feat chain.
Cheers, -- N
1/ Thou shalt not take level 20 of Rogue. That last level is worthless.
2/ If multiclassing, thou shalt try to take a total of 10, 13, 16 or 19 levels of Rogue. Thou shalt not take 12 or 14. 18 is right out.
3/ Thou shalt either find a way to make thyself invisible (via Use Magic Device and a wand of greater invisibility or a ring of blinking) or to get thyself a lot of attacks on a flank (via the Two Weapon Fighting chain of feats or a bunch of natural weapons).
4/ Thou shalt have tricks on hand for use in situations where thou cannot sneak attack, such as when faced with undead, golems or oozes.
5/ Thou shalt not overlook the humble dagger, for it deals both slashing and piercing damage, and it is both a melee and a ranged weapon. Also, it granteth thou a +2 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal it from the Spot checks of thy enemy, the city guardsman. Thou shalt remember that most of thy damage is going to come from Sneak Attack anyway, so who careth about the weapon's damage die? Not thee, that is for certain.
5b/ Quickdraw maketh thy daggers fly all the faster, and worketh nicely with thine Two Weapon Fighting feat chain.
Cheers, -- N
Gerion of Mercadia
First Post
notes of addendum to the divine commandments of powergaming rogues
5c. Thou shalt acquire by any means available as many daggers of returning as can be found.
1b. If evil, thou shalt take at least 1 Level of assassin and thou shalt take true strike as a spell known.
3b. Thou shalt spend ranks in bluff, and acquire the feats combat expertise and improved feint for situations when you find it necessary to remain hand to hand without the benefit of a "tank".
5d. If thou dost consider multiclassing, Thou shalt acquire the Multiweapon fighting chain by entering the Ranger core class and selecting the Two Weapon Fighting feat chain. This giveth thee other useful benefits as well, such as Track and Survival for free.
6. Thou shalt acquire a means of hauling large amounts of goods away from thy mark, such as a portable hole or a bag of holding.
7. Thou shalt force other members of thy party to attain and acquire the spells silence and deeper darkness, or have hide and move silently checks on par with thine own - in order that they shalt not "screw up" thy game.
2b. Thou shalt take at least 10 levels of rogue, so that when thou dost attain epic skill - thou canst spend an epic feat to acquire those special class features.
2c. If thy DM attempts to rule that thou canst do this, thou shalt get him to house rule it so that thou canst do it.
8. Thou shalt at 1st level, acquire the feat Improved Initiative
9. Thou shalt carefully consider the use of thy skill points - and not "waste" skill points on skills that have no potential epic usage
10. Thou shalt in all things be secretive and stealthy.
5c. Thou shalt acquire by any means available as many daggers of returning as can be found.
1b. If evil, thou shalt take at least 1 Level of assassin and thou shalt take true strike as a spell known.
3b. Thou shalt spend ranks in bluff, and acquire the feats combat expertise and improved feint for situations when you find it necessary to remain hand to hand without the benefit of a "tank".
5d. If thou dost consider multiclassing, Thou shalt acquire the Multiweapon fighting chain by entering the Ranger core class and selecting the Two Weapon Fighting feat chain. This giveth thee other useful benefits as well, such as Track and Survival for free.
6. Thou shalt acquire a means of hauling large amounts of goods away from thy mark, such as a portable hole or a bag of holding.
7. Thou shalt force other members of thy party to attain and acquire the spells silence and deeper darkness, or have hide and move silently checks on par with thine own - in order that they shalt not "screw up" thy game.
2b. Thou shalt take at least 10 levels of rogue, so that when thou dost attain epic skill - thou canst spend an epic feat to acquire those special class features.
2c. If thy DM attempts to rule that thou canst do this, thou shalt get him to house rule it so that thou canst do it.
8. Thou shalt at 1st level, acquire the feat Improved Initiative
9. Thou shalt carefully consider the use of thy skill points - and not "waste" skill points on skills that have no potential epic usage
10. Thou shalt in all things be secretive and stealthy.
Improved initiative is a must have, as is a high constitution. Quickdraw is always nice.
One choice you must make is whether you will focus on strength or dexterity. If you choose strength, get power attack and use a two-handed weapon. Spending a feat on EWP: Bastard Sword can be very nice (especially when coupled with a Glove of Storing) as it will let you keep an open hand and still threaten. The Spring Attack chain can be very effective.
If you chose a dex based build, get as many attacks per round as possible. Always keep some expendable knives on hand. Only use melee attacks if you have a lot of assistance from other party members to help protect you, distract enemies from you, and (of course) help you flank. Otherwise, go ranged.
One choice you must make is whether you will focus on strength or dexterity. If you choose strength, get power attack and use a two-handed weapon. Spending a feat on EWP: Bastard Sword can be very nice (especially when coupled with a Glove of Storing) as it will let you keep an open hand and still threaten. The Spring Attack chain can be very effective.
If you chose a dex based build, get as many attacks per round as possible. Always keep some expendable knives on hand. Only use melee attacks if you have a lot of assistance from other party members to help protect you, distract enemies from you, and (of course) help you flank. Otherwise, go ranged.
I have played a good number of rogues and personally fell that two weapon fighting takes up too many feats to be reasonably effective.
IMHO; The rogues poor BAB and penalties for TWF dont make for a good chance to hit after the first or secondary attacks. Feats are way too valuable at one every 3rd level to waste on something that produces too little result at higher levels.
I would go at least to Rogue 13, so you get at least two of the rogues special abilities (available starting at 10th level). I like Crippling Strike (does Strength damage) and Opportunist.
Obviously a high Dex and Con will be your most precious Ability Scores. Int maybe in there too if you want to be a skill based Rogue.
Feats: Improved Intiative, Combat reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, maybe Iron Will
Races: Dwarves and Elves make great rogues, Humans are nice for the extra feat and skill points.
Suggestion: the two biggest rogue killer's out there is the infamous WILL save, find some way to raise your will save! and low Hit Dice, so raise your Con too!
IMHO; The rogues poor BAB and penalties for TWF dont make for a good chance to hit after the first or secondary attacks. Feats are way too valuable at one every 3rd level to waste on something that produces too little result at higher levels.
I would go at least to Rogue 13, so you get at least two of the rogues special abilities (available starting at 10th level). I like Crippling Strike (does Strength damage) and Opportunist.
Obviously a high Dex and Con will be your most precious Ability Scores. Int maybe in there too if you want to be a skill based Rogue.
Feats: Improved Intiative, Combat reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, maybe Iron Will
Races: Dwarves and Elves make great rogues, Humans are nice for the extra feat and skill points.
Suggestion: the two biggest rogue killer's out there is the infamous WILL save, find some way to raise your will save! and low Hit Dice, so raise your Con too!
I'd go Dwarf. Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14 (16), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12 (10)
Move is only 20' but some of the dwarf abilities are real nice: 60' darkvision, +2 vs. poison and spells/-like effects, stonecunning
Feats: Improved Initiative. Later, take combat expertise, improved feint, weapon focus (dagger), improved critical (dagger), quick draw, weapon finesse
Skills: bluff, disable device, listen, open lock, search, sense motive, sleight of hand, spot, tumble, use magic device
So many routes to go, I'm sure my choice would change tomorrow. I wouldn't go overboard, you can have lots of fun with any type of rogue.
The other posters covered the subject quite well.
Move is only 20' but some of the dwarf abilities are real nice: 60' darkvision, +2 vs. poison and spells/-like effects, stonecunning
Feats: Improved Initiative. Later, take combat expertise, improved feint, weapon focus (dagger), improved critical (dagger), quick draw, weapon finesse
Skills: bluff, disable device, listen, open lock, search, sense motive, sleight of hand, spot, tumble, use magic device
So many routes to go, I'm sure my choice would change tomorrow. I wouldn't go overboard, you can have lots of fun with any type of rogue.
The other posters covered the subject quite well.
There are an almost unlimited number of ways to go with a rogue. A couple of my favorites...
The Melee rogue is a fun way to really ramp up damage. Weapon Finesse is a must for most builds.
I like TWF for melee rogues. Four levels of fighter are a big help; you get an extra attack at level 20, some extra hit points, and, oh yeah, three extra feats. Two levels of Ranger (instead or in addition to fighter levels) are also handy - free TWF, you don't really hurt your skills, and you can take favored enemy (undead) to suck less against them. Weapon spec in matching light weapons is a good way to go for the dual-wielder. Limit your penalites, use Weapon Finesse, and you only need to take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization once. Everyone recommends the short swords, which makes sense for a pure rogue... but I recommend kukris or handaxes instead. Slashing damage is handy. Plus, you'll be different. For skills, almost anything makes sense, depending on what you want to play as. In addition to WF and WS in your weapon of choice, you'll want Improved Critical (especially fun with the kukris).
You can also go the duelist route (whether or not you actually take levels in duelist) for melee. This works better with Complete Warrior's Swashbuckler, but, oh well. Again, four levels of fighter are handy. Use a rapier, since its a classic. If you aren't worried about being super-powerful, or you're going Duelist, use just the rapier. You can also grab a buckler, or a dagger for a main gauche. (That requires TWF to be used correctly, obviously). Skill-wise, I'd go with a lot of movement skills (Tumble, Balance, and Jump), plus things like Diplomacy and Bluff. The Combat Expertise tree is a good one for this, so get a 13 Intelligence, minimum. Improved Disarm and Improved Feint are the hallmark of a Swashbuckler/Duelist type. You'll also need Dodge and Mobility to enter the Duelist class if you choose to.
A less traditional rogue might use a big two-handed weapon. As always, fighter levels help. You might also look at Barbarian levels (rage is nice, you can get improved uncanny dodge quickly, and you get fast movement). You could even look at Paladin levels (not for thieves or assassin, obviously... but an agent of a government or religion, maybe), if you have a good Charisma.
I'll be honest and admit that I don't know as much when it comes to ranged rogues, so I'll leave that to someone else to discuss. The one thing I will say... do something different. Use a hand crossbow. In fact, I like the hand crossbow as a ranged weapon for many rogues. It has style.
If you're focusing more on thieving than on fighting, I recommend adding in some levels of Wizard or Sorcerer. There are plenty of spells in the PHB that make thieving and intrigue easier and more fun, even with only a few levels (disguise self and spiderclimb, for instance). You could also choose to focus on ray spells as a ranged rogue type, adding your sneak attack in to the damage. Arcane Trickster is a good PrC for either sort. Ray types will want Point Blank shot and Precise Shot. Stealthy types... I honestly like Sorcs a bit more for this role, with Silent Spell (and, to a lesser extent, Still Spell) to avoid detection. Extend spell is always good as well.
Another idea for spellcaster rogues is a conjurer. Bring your own flankers! Toss in Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning to make sure they last longer.
Race-wise... almost everyone can be a great rogue. Half-orcs really can't, but...
-Humans get an extra feat and anything for a favored class (helpful for multiclassing). The skill points are nice, as always.
-Elves get some extra weapons, bonuses on listen, search, and spot, bonuses against enchantments, low-light vision, and +2 Dex. The -2 Con hurts, though. Favored Class: Wizard isn't a bad one.
-Dwarves are generally good at everything. The lower speed is a bit of a pain, but the huge bonuses help make up for it. +2 Con is great, -2 Cha won't kill you (though you have the skills to use Charisma). And Favored Class: Fighter is great for melee and ranged builds.
-Halflings are fun rogues. When you're dealing a bunch of sneak attack dice, a slight drop in weapon damage is not a huge deal. Also, note that spells don't drop in damage based on size, so they're fun ray-types. +2 Dex is awesome, -2 Strength... again, you have sneak attack for damage. Small size is handy for rogues, and there are plenty of nice skill bonuses (not to mention the saving throw bonus). And favored class: Rogue is perfect for multiclassing.
-Gnomes, in my opinion, aren't quite there with halflings, but they're still fine rogues. +2 Con is helpful, and all that I said about size and strength above still holds true. Favored Class: Bard isn't very helpful, unfortunately. For fun, go with a Gnome Rogue/Fighter with a hooked hammer.
-Half-Elves are actually not horrible. They retain the +2 bonus vs. enchatments, and they can put their skill bonuses to good use. Low-light vision is helpful. And they have favored class: Any. If you're going with something a bit odd for a multiclass and you want low-light vision, they work.
-Half-Orcs aren't great. +2 strength doesn't help as much as it does for, say, fighters. Darkvision is handy. -2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma both hurt.
The Melee rogue is a fun way to really ramp up damage. Weapon Finesse is a must for most builds.
I like TWF for melee rogues. Four levels of fighter are a big help; you get an extra attack at level 20, some extra hit points, and, oh yeah, three extra feats. Two levels of Ranger (instead or in addition to fighter levels) are also handy - free TWF, you don't really hurt your skills, and you can take favored enemy (undead) to suck less against them. Weapon spec in matching light weapons is a good way to go for the dual-wielder. Limit your penalites, use Weapon Finesse, and you only need to take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization once. Everyone recommends the short swords, which makes sense for a pure rogue... but I recommend kukris or handaxes instead. Slashing damage is handy. Plus, you'll be different. For skills, almost anything makes sense, depending on what you want to play as. In addition to WF and WS in your weapon of choice, you'll want Improved Critical (especially fun with the kukris).
You can also go the duelist route (whether or not you actually take levels in duelist) for melee. This works better with Complete Warrior's Swashbuckler, but, oh well. Again, four levels of fighter are handy. Use a rapier, since its a classic. If you aren't worried about being super-powerful, or you're going Duelist, use just the rapier. You can also grab a buckler, or a dagger for a main gauche. (That requires TWF to be used correctly, obviously). Skill-wise, I'd go with a lot of movement skills (Tumble, Balance, and Jump), plus things like Diplomacy and Bluff. The Combat Expertise tree is a good one for this, so get a 13 Intelligence, minimum. Improved Disarm and Improved Feint are the hallmark of a Swashbuckler/Duelist type. You'll also need Dodge and Mobility to enter the Duelist class if you choose to.
A less traditional rogue might use a big two-handed weapon. As always, fighter levels help. You might also look at Barbarian levels (rage is nice, you can get improved uncanny dodge quickly, and you get fast movement). You could even look at Paladin levels (not for thieves or assassin, obviously... but an agent of a government or religion, maybe), if you have a good Charisma.
I'll be honest and admit that I don't know as much when it comes to ranged rogues, so I'll leave that to someone else to discuss. The one thing I will say... do something different. Use a hand crossbow. In fact, I like the hand crossbow as a ranged weapon for many rogues. It has style.
If you're focusing more on thieving than on fighting, I recommend adding in some levels of Wizard or Sorcerer. There are plenty of spells in the PHB that make thieving and intrigue easier and more fun, even with only a few levels (disguise self and spiderclimb, for instance). You could also choose to focus on ray spells as a ranged rogue type, adding your sneak attack in to the damage. Arcane Trickster is a good PrC for either sort. Ray types will want Point Blank shot and Precise Shot. Stealthy types... I honestly like Sorcs a bit more for this role, with Silent Spell (and, to a lesser extent, Still Spell) to avoid detection. Extend spell is always good as well.
Another idea for spellcaster rogues is a conjurer. Bring your own flankers! Toss in Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning to make sure they last longer.
Race-wise... almost everyone can be a great rogue. Half-orcs really can't, but...
-Humans get an extra feat and anything for a favored class (helpful for multiclassing). The skill points are nice, as always.
-Elves get some extra weapons, bonuses on listen, search, and spot, bonuses against enchantments, low-light vision, and +2 Dex. The -2 Con hurts, though. Favored Class: Wizard isn't a bad one.
-Dwarves are generally good at everything. The lower speed is a bit of a pain, but the huge bonuses help make up for it. +2 Con is great, -2 Cha won't kill you (though you have the skills to use Charisma). And Favored Class: Fighter is great for melee and ranged builds.
-Halflings are fun rogues. When you're dealing a bunch of sneak attack dice, a slight drop in weapon damage is not a huge deal. Also, note that spells don't drop in damage based on size, so they're fun ray-types. +2 Dex is awesome, -2 Strength... again, you have sneak attack for damage. Small size is handy for rogues, and there are plenty of nice skill bonuses (not to mention the saving throw bonus). And favored class: Rogue is perfect for multiclassing.
-Gnomes, in my opinion, aren't quite there with halflings, but they're still fine rogues. +2 Con is helpful, and all that I said about size and strength above still holds true. Favored Class: Bard isn't very helpful, unfortunately. For fun, go with a Gnome Rogue/Fighter with a hooked hammer.
-Half-Elves are actually not horrible. They retain the +2 bonus vs. enchatments, and they can put their skill bonuses to good use. Low-light vision is helpful. And they have favored class: Any. If you're going with something a bit odd for a multiclass and you want low-light vision, they work.
-Half-Orcs aren't great. +2 strength doesn't help as much as it does for, say, fighters. Darkvision is handy. -2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma both hurt.
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