Core Rules Turning Vs. Complete Divine Variant

[HellHound]

I have the same mental hoops to run through as Three Haligonians. I feel that TR is too weak under the variant system as given, but am unsure about providing a full 1d6 of reduction per point of TR...

 

[Coredump]

i do like the simplicity of the variant.

But I really dislike the fact that it is a 'divine undead fireball'. It just doesn't seem to have the feel of turning undead. Mechanically the variant is fine, thematically I don't like it.

 

[Quidam]

bolstering & turn resistance

I've started using this turn variant in our campaign and so far it seems rather powerful. Being the DM, I immediately noted that if the good cleric gets the jump on the evil cleric's undead, they're dust. The evil cleric's healing ability won't help already destroyed undead. Bolstering is supposed to be the evil cleric's counter, but this variant doesn't really help.

What I'm using now is allowing an evil cleric to bolster undead providing Temporary Hit Points equivalent to the damage that can be dealt- 1d6/lvl. These THP would not stack with one another- the largest current application overlaps the others.

Turn resistance does seem weak, as well- not all undead are attended by bolstering clerics. I'm curious to hear what others think of the idea to remove one die per point of turn resistance. Personally, I like it, but I'm the DM.

 

[JimAde]

I agree with coredump. It just doesn't feel like turning. If the undead get destroyed it's fine, but I just don't like the idea of the undead saying "ouch," and still attacking. Turning should either work or not, IMO.

Having said that, I do allow the feat that lets you do damage instead, so I guess I'm a hypocrite.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I think the existing Turn Undead rules have a flavorful concept (because it hearkens back to Dracula recoiling from the cross), but the implementation is flawed (because it requires too much dice-rolling and is not easy to remember).

By contrast, I think the Complete Divine variant turning rules have a boring concept (because it's just another way to deal damage), but the implementation is excellent (because it's simple and easy to remember).

Given the existing choices, I have chosen to stick with the core Turn Undead, warts and all. I like my game better where the clerics can send the undead running (or make 'em cower while the rest of the party whales on 'em).

 

[Sir Brennen]

I agree with coredump. It just doesn't feel like turning. If the undead get destroyed it's fine, but I just don't like the idea of the undead saying "ouch," and still attacking. Turning should either work or not, IMO.

Well, I have house rules (check 'em out here) which are based off of the variant, as I actually thought the variant was a bit too powerful (in the sense that all other party members could simply step back and let the cleric handle things.) So I scaled the damage back some (1/2 level +1 d8), allowed a save for 1/2 damage, and TR both adds to the save and gives Positive Energy Resistance.

There's also room for other effects, like using an extra turning attempt to set the undead on fire

One other thing you might add to make it feel more like 'classic' turning, is targets in the area of effect also become Shaken (or only shaken on a failed save, if you go that route.)

 

[Necrohazard]

What of making a cleric under this rule limited to turning udead within the 30ft. radius to undead under the clerics [Effective Turning Level +4] or [Effective Turning Level + 1/2 Cha. mod.] so that although a 1st-level cleric may be able to hurt undead with 5HD or lower, (or level + half Cha. mod.) the same cleric could not do anything to an undead of 6HD or more.

I like the idea of TR helping out with the "Will Save" and those undead that fails it save it also becomes shaken.

If one was to use the HD limit above, then TR could be used to help the undead from being turned in the first place.

Example:
Allip 4HD TR +2 would be treated as a 6HD undead placing it out of the range of a first level cleric.
Ghoul 2HD TR +2 would be treated as a 4HD undead, not much help to the goul in this case.
Lich 11HD TR +4 would be treated as a 15HD undead, as you can see this rule helps some but most likely not most.

TR as Resistance: This may be a little over the top, but maybe one could multiplying the TR by half the undeads HD.
Allip TR +2 multiplied by 1/2 its HD = 4;
Ghouls TR +2 multiplied by 1/2 its HD = 2;
Lich TR +4 multiplied by 1/2 its HD = 20;

So what does anyone have to say about these? Thanks to any feedback.

 

[Coredump]

What of making a cleric under this rule limited to turning udead within the 30ft. radius to undead under the clerics [Effective Turning Level +4] or [Effective Turning Level + 1/2 Cha. mod.] so that although a 1st-level cleric may be able to hurt undead with 5HD or lower, (or level + half Cha. mod.) the same cleric could not do anything to an undead of 6HD or more.

Sorry, I am having pronoun trouble. Which rule are you talking about? Are they turning them, or damaging them? Is the [effective turning level +4] a permanent cap? (ie. would a 1st level cleric always be able to effect 5HD undead?)

 

[Necrohazard]

Sorry, I am having pronoun trouble. Which rule are you talking about? Are they turning them, or damaging them? Is the [effective turning level +4] a permanent cap? (ie. would a 1st level cleric always be able to effect 5HD undead?)

The damaging rules, sorry I was not clear about that.
I put down two ways of limiting what HD of undead could be damaged, so if one was to use [Effective Turning Level +4] then the only thing that makes a cleric able to turn an undead of a greater HD is by being a higher level cleric, this rule is not unlike the core rules in that a cleric if lucky can make a "Turn Check" affecting undead of the cleric's level +4 (not counting any feats).

No, a cleric would not always be able to effect 5HD undead, if for example one used the rules that I outlined on how TR can help undead out in this respect, not only on Resistance, but also as a bonus to HD, examples above.

I did not state before but also under these rules an evil cleric could use the [Effective Turning Level +4] (not counting feats) or [Effective Turning Level +1/2 Cha. Mod.] for "Bolstering Undead" so that the cleric can make the undead even more hard if not impossible to "Damage" although there should be a form of "Damaging Vs. Bostering" so that one or the other would have a chance of overcoming what the other is doing.

Bolstering Undead Examples:
Ghoul 2HD +2 TR Bolsterd by 1st-level Cleric, would make the ghoul treated as a 9HD undead only to see if the cleric can hurt the undead in the first place; So a cleric that wanted to be able to "Damage" this ghoul would have to have an [Effective Turning Level 5] if the rule [ETL+4] is used if [ETL+1/2 Cha. Mod.] is used then it would be taken case by case.
One could also rule that the 1st-level cleric that is unable to "Damage" the ghoul this round may be able to do so in the next round if the evil cleric no longer bolsters the undead.
The way to handle this is by subtracting the [ELT+4] of the "Damaging" cleric from the [ELT+4] of the "Bolstering" cleric.
Example:
The 1st-level cleric should be able to "Damage" an unbolstered ghoul, but as the cleric tries to do so vs. a 1st-level evil clerics bolstered ghoul, it is undamaged, but its "Bolstered" 9HD drops to 4HD, so next round the cleric should be able to "Damage" the undead as normal as long as the evil cleric does not "Bolster" the ghould before then.
This could also work for the [ETL+1/2 Cha. Mod.] just with a few adjustments.
Even under this rule is is possible for a cleric of high enough [ETL] to "Damage" even "Bolstered" undead, or if the [ETL] of the cleric is too low, then it may take more then one "Damaging" attempt before the cleric is even able to "Damage" the undead.

Well I hope that helped, yes a little long winded huh.

 

[Trainz]

I have the same mental hoops to run through as Three Haligonians. I feel that TR is too weak under the variant system as given, but am unsure about providing a full 1d6 of reduction per point of TR...

I use the variant, and if anything, it's quite powerful.

The cleric player is now 9th level. He has empower turning, extra turning and quicken turning.

Allow me to do the math:

He has Cha 16. About 10 times per day, AS A FREE ACTION, he inflicts 14d6 damage on all undead in a 30' radius around him, Will save DC 24 for half.​

When he'll be 20th level, it might look a little like this:

About 16 times per day, AS A FREE ACTION, he inflicts 30d6 damage on all undead in a 30' radius around him, Will save DC 37 for half.​

You see, the higher the cleric is, the more powerful he is with respect to critters of his level.