Core Rules vs. E-Tools

[Vpenman]

Hi,

Its been over four years since the last Core Rules program was released and over a year since the release of E-Tools.

I was hoping that people who had used both would provide their opinions on the relative merits of the different programs.

I was involved in the creation of the Core Rules programs, but I am not asking anyone to spare my feelings. I have a personal and professional curiosity I hope to satisfy.

Thanks,

Victor

 

[smetzger]

Core Rules - looked pretty but I found bugs and problems within the first hour. You could not fully create a character, it had print problems and it wouldn't install on all WinNT (which was an MS supported OS at the time).

E-Tools - Character generator was not flexible enough. The UI is a bit clunky. You could not export custom entered data and then import it into another program. Random character generation is severely lacking.

From what I know of the Core Rules program it suffered from a development cycle that was too fast.

From what I know of the E-Tools project it suffered from changing requirements and choosing the wrong company to make the program.

Suggestions for 'next time'
1) Figure out exactly what the program is supposed to do. IMO character generation is central to any D&D program. The GUI should be well designed with as few different screens as possible.
2) Choose the right people to develop the software. Fluid is a good game development company. However, they did not have any experience developing database applications. A D&D character generator is a database program.

 

[Vpenman]

Core Rules - looked pretty but I found bugs and problems within the first hour. You could not fully create a character, it had print problems and it wouldn't install on all WinNT (which was an MS supported OS at the time)...

This must be regarding the original Core Rules program published in 1996. Core Rules II and the Expansion did support NT. FWIW (and hoping I am not getting too defensive here), NT was not listed as a supported OS on the box.

I do appreciate the response.

Also, in the interest of honesty, etc., while I recognize the original CR program had many problems, it was not because the development was rushed. I believe they are more related to: Supporting both Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 which were very different operating systems (during development, we worked with two betas plus the final versions of '95), several (silently reved) versions of Win32s which were supposed (but did not) allow you to do the same thing with 3.1 as you could with '95, four different versions of our C++ compiler, created a fully-animated, 3D minimovie, and hired and put together a staff that was working on its first project together.

In retrospect, it would have been better to have foregone the 3D movie (which took over half of the budget) and concentrated on the actual program (which you rightly note is a database program). Given the timing, there was not much we could do about the OS and compiler changes.

The project had a two-month design and 18 month development cycle which is actually pretty generous. As the spec was not much changed during development, this is much more time than what we had for CRII and over three times the time we had for the expansion.

Any other responses out there?

Victor

 

[Nylanfs]

Well having owned both (but I can't find my eTools CD since moving and reformating my computer, Grrr). Core Rules was fairly good at what it did, which was take a non-logical system and adapt it for generating characters on the computer. It was generally user friendly, and had good help. Plus it had the text of all the books it supported.

eTools major failing, other than all the management and design switches, was that it's using a Access database, and the code isn't flexible enough. With WotC creating the OGL license it opened the floodgates for individual creativity, hence the 600+ d20/OGL sources there are today. And I don't think that Fluid's designers really understood how the game system worked because it didn't really do some of the really basic things right.

Since Code Monkey Publishing (http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com) was given control of the eTools project. They have developed patches that fix the code for almost every bug that exists in it, I think the last total was 354+ bugs. But there are still some things that they can't support because the code isn't flexible enough, ie Templates for one thing. They have said that they are planning on doing a total re-write of the code, but that's going to be a while away.

Personally until the re-write of eTools, I'm sticking with PCGen

 

[Chaz]

Core RulesII & expan were superb!!!! thats it. period. Some of the best programs I ever bought. I loved using them. Wish I had as good and stable a program for the new 3.5(even 3.0). You guys did a fantastic job with them. There were some initial bugs but you worked them out. I miss using the programs.

Etools... Its fine I guess. But its so far behind.. ive stopped using it. Cant bring myself to turn it on. I download the patches, but it doesnt hold my interest. To many extras to get.. have to buy updrades... more patches...to many people working on it...Checking for the latest work arounds.. time on the forums ... I just dont have the energy or time to keep up with it. Wasnt fun to use realy.

I still hope the best for ET. But ive given up on spending so much time trying to keep up with all the new news about whats working and whats not, whats nees to be bought next to do whatever... 3.5 has been out for a long time now and .. well... you get the idea. I just got tired and gave up.

Peace

 

[Nylanfs]

Umm, 3.5e has only been out for what 6 months? And CMP couldn't get an advance copy of the rules so they could get a headstart on the datasets or even start looking at what needs revamped. And since they are being totally redone they have to be submitted to WotC for their approval, then when they get approved it gets released. Which Mynex has been saying that it should be the before X-mas.

6 months is a short time to get all that done and making sure it all works right.

 

[realmaster]

Core RulesII & expan were superb!!!! thats it. period. Some of the best programs I ever bought. I loved using them.

This I totally agree with,I love CRII W/Expansion. I still play 2E on the weekend with a session of 3E also. I use CR as a reference guide all the time on my computer. I think eTools is coming along great with the support it is getting. With the characters that I have on eTools, they come out pretty close to complete with just a couple of little problems but nothing that front page can't correct.

 

[Femerus the Gnecro]

I really enjoyed CR II simply because I could run it under Virtual PC on my mac with no noticeable slowdown.

That and I LOVE the map maker. Lots of fun, that. I know that arguably CCII is better, but really the CR II mapper is far easier at making a quick overview of a continent.

The rest of it I didn't mess around with too much... I started using a 2nd hand copy of it *after* 3e came out.

Etools, OTOH, doesn't run worth crap under VPC, and isn't as full featured as PCgen anyways. I haven't tried Etools in a while though, and I hear it's improved a great deal. I'm going to wait for it to get *really* good before I take the plunge again though.

It's sad really... I *adored* the character generator demo from the back of the PHB.

-F

 

[Starrie]

I too love CRII w/Exp. I still use it as I have a DM that will not switch to 3e. If I didn't have CRII I don't think I would play 2e anymore.
I started making a character by hand a few weeks ago cause it had been a very long time since I made one and I had forgotten how tedious it is to do.
I started up my computer when I got home and cranked out my character complete with spells in about 20 minutes. So thank you for creating a wonderful program.

I also enjoy e-Tools now that is works. Code Monkey Publishing has done an incredible job making and almost worthless product do what it should have from the start. I still have a 3e game and I use e-Tools to create all my characters.

I also use the most wonderful PCGen program for my 3.5 campaigns. It is almost there for 3.5.

All in all 3 terrific programs. I know you only asked about 2

**Starrie

www.codemonkeypublishing.com
pcgen.sourceforge.net

 

[smetzger]

This must be regarding the original Core Rules program published in 1996. Core Rules II and the Expansion did support NT. FWIW (and hoping I am not getting too defensive here), NT was not listed as a supported OS on the box.

Ah, Ok. I thought you were talking about the free CD in the 3.0 PH.

Core Rules I was pretty bad.

Core Rules II was decent and usable and much better than e-tools. The UI was a bit clunky and the random NPC generation was not customizable enough. The best thing about Core Rules II was the electronic copies of all the 2e books.