Correct me if I'm wrong: Paladin Marks

[Nail]

I believe his point is that the the bonus effects that Defenders get when a creature is marked should be explained a little clearer as a secondary effect to the marked condition. In essence, it's not explained that "marked" is a condition anyone could apply until after it's already been presented as the mechanic for Fighter and Paladin abilities. The objection is the use of the term prior to it being defined, which causes confusion.

Well said.

 

[Matt Black]

There's no perfect way to have laid it all out. Every permutation has flaws.

There are no perfect ways, but there are better ways and worse ways. A better way would be to a) tell us that 'marked' is a condition, and b) give a page reference to the detailed description of the condition. Seems pretty obvious really.

 

[Nail]

There are no perfect ways, but there are better ways and worse ways. A better way would be to a) tell us that 'marked' is a condition, and b) give a page reference to the detailed description of the condition. Seems pretty obvious really.

Well, you couldn't do that *every* time you had the "marked" condition....could you? That would get tiresome IMO. So...would you just insert the page refernce sometimes, occasionally, only once?

It's tricky. I'm not sure it's "obvious". YMMV.

 

[Matt Black]

Well, you couldn't do that *every* time you had the "marked" condition....could you? That would get tiresome IMO. So...would you just insert the page refernce sometimes, occasionally, only once?

It's tricky. I'm not sure it's "obvious". YMMV.

It's just a matter of wording. Instead of saying: "The mark lasts until the end of your next turn," say: "The marked condition (see page 277) lasts until the end of your next turn." That's 27 extra characters. And you only really need that twice: for the class abilities of the fighter and the paladin. The 3.5 PHB is full of this sort of cross referencing, so I don't see what the problem is.

 

[jaelis]

Well, you couldn't do that *every* time you had the "marked" condition....could you? That would get tiresome IMO. So...would you just insert the page refernce sometimes, occasionally, only once?

It's tricky. I'm not sure it's "obvious". YMMV.

I would have made an explicit reference once in the Divine Challenge description, and once in the Combat Challenge description. Actually, I would have written Combat Challenge like this:

In combat, it's dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. (See page 277.) In addition, if an enemy you have marked is adjacent to you and attempts to shift or make an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

Really, the rule that a creature can only have one mark on it at a time should be given on pg 277, not here.

 

[Nail]

Really, the rule that a creature can only have one mark on it at a time should be given on pg 277, not here.

I'm not sure that works. Other conditions can be "layered", IIRC. Frex, 4 different creatures can grab and immobilize you, and you'd have to escape 4 times to be successful. Or you could be stunned by two different powers and have to save for both of them to remove the stunned condition. Etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

A better approach would have been to include an example at the beginning of the 'How to read a power' section including advice to read the 'Attacks and Defenses' section at p269 before you assume you know how powers work. Said advice could also include a suggestion you read enough to know how conditions work before you even begin -looking- at the powers.


OH WAIT THEY DID THAT

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm not sure that works. Other conditions can be "layered", IIRC. Frex, 4 different creatures can grab and immobilize you, and you'd have to escape 4 times to be successful. Or you could be stunned by two different powers and have to save for both of them to remove the stunned condition. Etc.

Nope. Two applications of the same condition use the least convenient duration. So if you have stunned (save ends) and stunned (no save) then you get no save against stunned. Ongoing damage works the same way.

Marked is different in that it has a specific 'marker' and thus only the last creature to mark applies, unless otherwise stated. You aren't 'stunned four times' You either have stunned or do not have stunned. Same with marked. Regardless, defender marks -explicitly- are lifted when someone else marks.

And yeah, they -should have- stated it outright rather than assume it when they make their rulings.

 

[Matt Black]

A better approach would have been to include an example at the beginning of the 'How to read a power' section including advice to read the 'Attacks and Defenses' section at p269 before you assume you know how powers work. Said advice could also include a suggestion you read enough to know how conditions work before you even begin -looking- at the powers.


OH WAIT THEY DID THAT

That reference has nothing to do with figuring out what is and what isn't a condition. And besides it's about reading powers, not class abilities. It isn't obvious that a new reader would think to go to "how to read a power" when confronted with a confusing class ability.

Anyway, the problem with this approach is that the PHB is a handbook - a reference manual - and it should be possible to find the information you need without having to read it like a novel every time you look up a rule. Sure, you should read it from start to finish the first time, but you can't remember all that stuff from one reading. Cross-referencing is the norm for rulebooks, and the 4E PHB is haphazard with it.

 

[DracoSuave]

That reference has nothing to do with figuring out what is and what isn't a condition.

See "Attacks and Defenses," page 269, for how to make attack rolls, how to deal damage, and how to deal various effects, including conditions and forced movement

Funny, it sees they -explicitly- mention conditions. My PHB might be different than yours tho.

And besides it's about reading powers, not class abilities. It isn't obvious that a new reader would think to go to "how to read a power" when confronted with a confusing class ability.

It isn't obvious that someone would tear into the powers before reading the instructions on how to interpret them, which is the section -just before- the classes themselves, in the section marked 'Classes.' You can't predict the actions of everybody. However, you cannot with any reasonable argument claim they didn't instruct players to read how powers work before reading powers. The 'What the hell does all this mean?' section is -just before- the 'All this' section. That's like complaining that 3E shouldn't assume you knew how to read a spell before reading a spell.

It's not the books fault, books are inherently a poor medium for players attempting Random Access of it.