Cost of Arrows?

[Wicht]

Something I was pondering today, after buying a couple of arrows preparatory to hunting some food...

RPG arrows tend to be cheap. A Pathfinder longbow for instance cost 75 gp and 20 arrows costs 1 gp.

In real life, arrows are actually quite expensive. A single cheap hunting arrow with a broad head is going to run you about $10, and its quite easy to spend two or three times that on 1 arrow. A longbow on the other hand is going to run you $75-200. In other words, twenty arrows can easily cost twice as much as a bow.

Looking around, this was true historically of real arrows. In 1518, for instance, an english longbow would have cost you 3s. 4d., and the sheaf of arrows and furniture would have been 5s. 4d. Which means that 24 arrows, in a quiver was more than the bow itself. (source) ((In modern dollars, that works up to about $168 for the bow and $262 for the arrows))

So... here's the question... how would it change the way archery is perceived if, in-game, two-dozen arrows was more expensive than the bow was?

My daughter suggests that fletching, as a craft, would be much more practiced by PCs.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

One thing to take into consideration is that arrows are much more effective in real life than they are in most games. In Pathfinder, you might reasonably fire a hundred arrows in the course of a day, in order to slay five monsters.

As long as the total sum of the bow and arrows didn't change - if you vastly reduced the price of the bow, to make up for the increased price of arrows - then it shouldn't affect the game world very much. If you merely increased the price of arrows to 125 GP for 20, then the result would probably be the abandonment of archery and the widespread adoption of slings for most NPCs.

 

[Wicht]

One thing to take into consideration is that arrows are much more effective in real life than they are in most games. In Pathfinder, you might reasonably fire a hundred arrows in the course of a day, in order to slay five monsters.

You need to game with a better set of archers.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You need to game with a better set of archers.

Mostly we just need to stop hunting shoggoths. The combination of HP and DR/- with Fast Healing means the battle takes forever.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/shoggoth

 

[discosoc]

The problem with looking at historical prices is that they don't really reflect the fact that the bowman either had his arrows provided for him by his lord or commander, or that in the case of hunters and non-military bowman, making your own was pretty standard.

For the first scenario (bowman in an army), there's probably a few dozen fletchers that literally do nothing but keep the archers stocked with ammunition, and quality wasn't really a huge deal (just had to be good enough for a volley). Even then, it's not like they need to have 50 arrows each. In most engagements they'd maybe get a few volleys off and then either sit back while the calvary and infantry did their thing, or they'd get overrun and killed.

For hunters, being able to make an arrow was just part of life. With these guys, it was about making high-quality shafts and arrow heads, and repairing when necessary with new feathers. If a shaft splits, they'd salvage the arrow head. If the arrow head cracked, they'd keep the shaft.

What this means is that the market for actual fletchers looking to make a living as such would have probably been kind of slim but a bit lucrative. They'd be providing decent arrows for people looking at archery as a sport, and wealthy enough to pay for someone else to handle the really boring fletching job. I could see these guys making decent coin in those scenarios, although they're probably the first to get drafted into making arrows for the army when a fight breaks out.

 

[aramis erak]

Look at the relative construction times. A longbow takes about 100-150 hours of work from tree to bow, but it's spread over 2-5 years, and has to be kept in specific conditions between.

Arrows, by comparison, take about 20-30 minutes apiece for a skilled fletcher... from raw cut branch, raw feathers, and a head to finished arrow and don't of need have to be dried and cured wood. In fact, I've been told by fletchers that drawing green wood and drying it hanging vertically and weighted is ideal. Still, it does help to let it dry, so that means leaving it hanging to dry... taking the dry shaft and fletching, knocking, and heading can be done by a competent fletcher in about 5-6 minutes using jigs and premade knocks, heads, and pre-split feathers.

 

[Wicht]

The problem with looking at historical prices is that they don't really reflect the fact that the bowman either had his arrows provided for him by his lord or commander, or that in the case of hunters and non-military bowman, making your own was pretty standard.

Well, even the Lord's had to buy them from somewhere and pay some price.

King Henry V, for a single order of 12,000 arrows, around 1413, paid 37 pounds, 10 shillings, which, conservatively, would be around $25,000. Ordering at bulk, for his military, he was paying more than $2 an arrow. That would make 2 sheaves of military arrows the equivalent of the cost of a single bow.

Even then, it's not like they need to have 50 arrows each. In most engagements they'd maybe get a few volleys off and then either sit back while the calvary and infantry did their thing, or they'd get overrun and killed.

Actually the english long-bowman was required to carry three sheaves of arrows into battle. They had to be able to fire between 12-20 arrows a minute; an archer who could not fire at least 10 arrows a minute was considered unfit for military service. This means that their ammunition would last them no longer than 6 minutes. After which they were resupplied from carts.

What this means is that the market for actual fletchers looking to make a living as such would have probably been kind of slim but a bit lucrative. They'd be providing decent arrows for people looking at archery as a sport, and wealthy enough to pay for someone else to handle the really boring fletching job. I could see these guys making decent coin in those scenarios, although they're probably the first to get drafted into making arrows for the army when a fight breaks out.

Actually, I suspect in England, there were a lot of fletchers.

But thinking about PCs, which market is the PC going to be buying from? The military bulk supplier or the private market? Even at the military price, its going to be 2 gp an arrow for realistic prices, and at the private price, we go up to at least double that price for one arrow.

 

[Wicht]

Look at the relative construction times. A longbow takes about 100-150 hours of work from tree to bow, but it's spread over 2-5 years, and has to be kept in specific conditions between.

Arrows, by comparison, take about 20-30 minutes apiece for a skilled fletcher... from raw cut branch, raw feathers, and a head to finished arrow and don't of need have to be dried and cured wood. In fact, I've been told by fletchers that drawing green wood and drying it hanging vertically and weighted is ideal. Still, it does help to let it dry, so that means leaving it hanging to dry... taking the dry shaft and fletching, knocking, and heading can be done by a competent fletcher in about 5-6 minutes using jigs and premade knocks, heads, and pre-split feathers.

You are neglecting the fact that the fletcher would not have had to necessarily dry his own bow-staves, but much of the work would have been done by the time it got to him.

But still, we don't have to speculate on the prices. We have documentation from the middle-ages that the cost of one or two sheaves of 24 arrows each was equal to the cost of a single bow. Arrows, apparently, have always been the most expensive part of being a bowman, unless, of course, you make your own.

 

[Umbran]

RPG arrows tend to be cheap. A Pathfinder longbow for instance cost 75 gp and 20 arrows costs 1 gp.

In real life, arrows are actually quite expensive. A single cheap hunting arrow with a broad head is going to run you about $10, and its quite easy to spend two or three times that on 1 arrow. A longbow on the other hand is going to run you $75-200. In other words, twenty arrows can easily cost twice as much as a bow.

I think you need to make sure you're doing an apples-to-apples comparison there. Specifically, to get that, you have to be matching the *low* end bow with the *high* end arrows. And who's going to do that?

Checking the Dick's Sporting Goods website: their best selling arrows are a six pack for $20. Only their *most* expensive are $20 per arrow. Meanwhile They do have "recurve and traditional" bows that are cheap, but the bow you'd actually be pairing with that high-end arrow is likely a modern compound bow, which they have as a minimum $25, and more likely $400 on up to $1000+

Also note that this pricing is for hobby and recreational sport use. Not war-footing or widespread "meat on the table" use.

My daughter suggests that fletching, as a craft, would be much more practiced by PCs.

I don't know about you, but in most games if I am planning on playing an archer long-term, I make sure they have that skill, because I don't want to have to worry about buying arrows. In 3e, keeping a quiver filled was pretty easy if you had the skill, and if you were good at it, masterwork arrows could become common ammunition for you.

 

[Wicht]

I think you need to make sure you're doing an apples-to-apples comparison there. Specifically, to get that, you have to be matching the *low* end bow with the *high* end arrows. And who's going to do that?

Checking the Dick's Sporting Goods website: their best selling arrows are a six pack for $20. Only their *most* expensive are $20 per arrow. Meanwhile They do have "recurve and traditional" bows that are cheap, but the bow you'd actually be pairing with that high-end arrow is likely a modern compound bow, which they have as a minimum $25, and more likely $400 on up to $1000+

That 6 pack is a very good buy (notice though that its half-off; and a review from a week ago makes it clear that it was just recently discounted.) But, and you may already know this, when you buy those arrows they either come with a field tip, or else you have to purchase the tips separate (I can't actually tell from the product description, I would assume they come with the point inserts, but if they don't that's a slight additional cost). Also, you will then need to cut them yourself, which you may or may not have the tools for. But then to use them for hunting, you still have to buy some broadheads for them. The cheapest broadheads I have found thus far are at Walmart at $7 for 3 heads. So, for six hunting arrows, even at that price (20+7+7), at a minimum you are looking at $34, or $5.66 an arrow. So having scoured the planet via the internet and mass marketing for the cheapest buy, for 20 "battle-worthy" arrows you still are looking at $113 easy.

As for compound bows, you can spend as much as you want, same as with any other hobby, but you should be able to get whatever you want for less than $500. Which is still pretty comparable to the compound bows of Pathfinder with strength bonuses. But I like longbows; I don't find the compound bows as much fun. My favorite bow, bought off of ebay from China was about $80 for an ostensible 60 lb pull. (I think its probably more of a 55 lb pull in truth).

Also note that this pricing is for hobby and recreational sport use. Not war-footing or widespread "meat on the table" use.

Speaking from both the meat on the table perspective and the hobbiest perspective, the pricing for one is pretty close to the pricing for the other; the main difference is the price of the broadheads which increases the price of the arrows.

I don't know about you, but in most games if I am planning on playing an archer long-term, I make sure they have that skill, because I don't want to have to worry about buying arrows. In 3e, keeping a quiver filled was pretty easy if you had the skill, and if you were good at it, masterwork arrows could become common ammunition for you.

Most archers in our games tend to take the skill, if for no other reason then it often seems character appropriate. Interestingly, though, increasing the price of arrows would also increase the time needed to make them by the RAW.