Could Mirage Arcana be used to cause someone to drown themselves?

[Shayuri]

The problem is that water has a lot of properties that air doesn't that an illusion (a figment at least) can't mask. Can it make water feel like air? Sure. Can it alter the bouyancy of water? The viscosity? No. I suppose a very unalert person, or a person that didn't have to move around might be fooled.

The other way around has the same problem. You can make air feel like water...but it won't suddenly start interfering with movement, nor will it allow you to float or swim around.

This would make it a pretty tough sell, I think.

 

[moritheil]

The problem is that water has a lot of properties that air doesn't that an illusion (a figment at least) can't mask. Can it make water feel like air? Sure. Can it alter the bouyancy of water? The viscosity? No. I suppose a very unalert person, or a person that didn't have to move around might be fooled.

The other way around has the same problem. You can make air feel like water...but it won't suddenly start interfering with movement, nor will it allow you to float or swim around.

This would make it a pretty tough sell, I think.

The real question is when it starts becoming noticeable. I think the comments about hair floating around and such are not real concerns, because if you notice your hair is floating around it's very likely the water is already above your nose. (That is, if you're walking at anything resembling normal speed . . . unless your hair is down well below your waist, which seems unlikely in most adventuring parties for reasons of practicality.) Even then, it's an open question as to whether or not the ability to provide visual input consistent with the illusion means you would see the hair behaving differently.

The illusion provides tactile input, so it seems the only thing the party would notice is that they are walking more slowly than normal. They would not notice that they are suddenly being impeded; they would have to figure it out from their movement rate relative to the surroundings.

 

[Arravis]

My intended scenario is that as the party goes hunting for an Aboleth, they have to hold their breath and dive through a series of water-filled caverns to get to the next air-filled cavern. The overall path slopes down and the last cavern, the one that holds the Aboleth is actually completely water-filled. The cavern before it will be water-filled as well... and when they see the "air-filled" cavern ahead, it'll match the pattern they've gone through so far. Once its reached, they'll take a nice big gulp of refreshing air... or well, maybe not .

 

[moritheil]

My intended scenario is that as the party goes hunting for an Aboleth, they have to hold their breath and dive through a series of water-filled caverns to get to the next air-filled cavern. The overall path slopes down and the last cavern, the one that holds the Aboleth is actually completely water-filled. The cavern before it will be water-filled as well... and when they see the "air-filled" cavern ahead, it'll match the pattern they've gone through so far. Once its reached, they'll take a nice big gulp of refreshing air... or well, maybe not .

Yeah, see, this is why I (and all my high-wis characters) have always preferred to not skimp on environmental adaptation spells like water breathing.

It's brilliant, btw.

 

[werk]

The problem is that water has a lot of properties that air doesn't that an illusion (a figment at least) can't mask. Can it make water feel like air? Sure. Can it alter the bouyancy of water? The viscosity? No. I suppose a very unalert person, or a person that didn't have to move around might be fooled.

That's why a glamer can do it, actually. Glamers aren't like princess leia hologram projections(figments), they alter the targets' perceptions. It specifically calls out tactile senses, which should include pressure, balance, temperature...any of the things that make floating in water FEEL different than standing in a cave.

Basically, they trick your brain into believing something that isn't.

As for the slowing of movement, you don't FEEL like you are moving slowly...your brain has been deceived.

Taking that breath of water would be the main interaction that you'd need to worry about.

My only real problem with this set-up is that it takes advantage of the troublesome drowning rules and basically forces failed saves on the PCs. It's ingenious, but I wouldn't try it on my players...just feels wrong.

 

[akbearfoot]

I wouldn't let anyone make an illusion of...air....Air is not an tangible object in D&D. How can you create an illusion of something that cannot be seen? There are spells that change the properties of air (ie temperature or wind speed) but that's not the same thing. If that is the case, a person could use mirage arcana to make THEMSELVES appear to be air....they would be undetectable by nearly every sensory method in the game which is clearly out of the scope of the spells power.

I would also cry foul at the notion that a PC would not somehow notice that they were moving slower than normal or that the weapons they are holding are still somehow impeded, or that their light sources would still be emiting reduced lighting or they still can't put their full weight on the ground or that they can't hear their armor clinking around like normal or any of their allies for that matter. What if a PC happens to still have plenty of air in his lungs and exhales before breathing again, what about those bubbles are they invisible too? Even if the water felt like air, the PC could still -feel- the difference between moving normally and well...not. How do you adjudicate something like this? Creatures that are in the water and have no swim speed MUST make a swim check to move anywhere. So you have to ask the player for a swim check if they continue to try and move.


I think it is a very creative idea, and very evil at that. However to actually try to use a tactic like this on PCs in order to auto-drown them is a very very bad idea. There are just so many variables and little issues. Good way to have your players walk out on you IMO.


Out of curiosity, what sort of adventuring group is at the level where they can potentially take out a aboleth and yet they don't have access to water breathing effects?

 

[Arravis]

A trend I'm seeing in some of the posts is something I've noticed over the years in D&D in general, and something I'm guilty of myself. In most campaigns, Illusions tend to be treated weakly. There's a reason very few people play illusionists, its always been one of D&D's red-headed step-children. If we treat an illusion as a simple a moving picture, we're doing them a great injustice. Too many DM's and Players dismiss the school of illusion, thinking it weak. It isn't weak, it’s simply the lack of imagination of the people using it and DM'ng it.

Anyway, on to Akbearfoot
I'll have to disagree with you...

"Air is not an tangible object in D&D."
How do you figure? Winged creatures fly, creatures breathe, etc. The list of things that show evidence of air’s “tangibility” could go on forever. It plays as much of a role as it does in life. Keep in mind though, that the tangibility of air doesn't really enter into it. An illusion simply wars perceptions, not reality itself.

"How can you create an illusion of something that cannot be seen?"
There's a lot more senses than sight. That is why the illusion spells specifically state, which senses are affected by an illusion and how they are affected. Weather it be pressure via touch and all the other available senses (as long as the spell affects those senses), or something as simple as smell... none of those things can be seen, but they are still clearly stated as being affected by a powerful illusion.

"There are spells that change the properties of air (i.e. temperature or wind speed) but that's not the same thing."
I assume you mean illusions in specific, not just general spells. How is air pressure different than wind speed? And why would you assume it only affects some parts of a sense and not others? It either affects a sense or it does not. Unless specifically stated, illusions don't have the kind of simplistic limitations you're placing on them. Nothing in the description of the spell or of illusions in the magic section supports your theory.

"If that is the case, a person could use mirage arcana to make THEMSELVES appear to be air"
No, that is not at all the case because the spell specifically states it does not work. From the SRD: "it can’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures"

"I would also cry foul at the notion that a PC would not somehow notice that they were moving slower than normal or that the weapons they are holding are still somehow impeded, or that their light sources would still be emiting reduced lighting or they still can't put their full weight on the ground or that they can't hear their armor clinking around like normal or any of their allies for that matter."
How do you think you sense those things yourself? How do you know if you're moving slow or fast, how do you know if your full weight is on the ground, etc... It is all done through your senses. Something that the spell clearly handles.

"What if a PC happens to still have plenty of air in his lungs and exhales before breathing again, what about those bubbles are they invisible too?"
The spell clearly affects the senses that allow you to see the bubbles, hear the bubbles, feel the bubbles, etc... Why would it not function? What's the point of casting a spell that changes the terrain... if you don't allow it to change the terrain? Where do you put a stop to it? If the players suddenly go from an arctic region to an illusion of a desert... does not the illusion make them think they're sweating? What's the point of the spell if it doesn't?

"How do you adjudicate something like this?"
Well, if it was clear to me as well... I would not be posting here, hehe.

"So you have to ask the player for a swim check if they continue to try and move.
This is true only if you're free-floating or treading water on the surface (and even then I might roll the swim check in secret for the player), but if you're walking along the bottom or have any kind of firm footing (and at least 16 lbs of gear), no swim check is required. Movement is halved though. The "Aquatic Terrain" section of the SRD has this information.

"Good way to have your players walk out on you IMO."
That depends on how the encounter is run at the time, to be honest. I try to run my monsters according to their abilities and my players know this. I'm never "out to get them", but a highly intelligent creature with many powerful abilities won't be underplayed in my campaign.

"Out of curiosity, what sort of adventuring group is at the level where they can potentially take out a aboleth and yet they don't have access to water breathing effects?"
The group is an evil adventuring group composed of 3 drow, 1 kobold assassin, and a human vampire, all character level of 9.

-Arravis

 

[moritheil]

I wouldn't let anyone make an illusion of...air....Air is not an tangible object in D&D. How can you create an illusion of something that cannot be seen? There are spells that change the properties of air (ie temperature or wind speed) but that's not the same thing.

You don't have to, if you rule that the spell just shows whatever the victims expect to be normal in the desired terrain type. Your objections are predicated on the limitations of an intermediate mechanism for the spell. But incidentally, what is an air elemental made of, if air is not tangible? It seems to me that's plenty tangible.

If that is the case, a person could use mirage arcana to make THEMSELVES appear to be air....they would be undetectable by nearly every sensory method in the game which is clearly out of the scope of the spells power.

No, but just because that's not what the spell does. "Scope of Power" arguments are very shaky where higher-level magic is involved. What are you using as a baseline? The common sense of various players often doesn't agree and science utterly fails to provide a good benchmark (0-level spells do the utterly impossible, creating water from nothing . . . )

I would also cry foul at the notion that a PC would not somehow notice that they were moving slower than normal or that the weapons they are holding are still somehow impeded, or that their light sources would still be emiting reduced lighting or they still can't put their full weight on the ground or that they can't hear their armor clinking around like normal or any of their allies for that matter. What if a PC happens to still have plenty of air in his lungs and exhales before breathing again, what about those bubbles are they invisible too? Even if the water felt like air, the PC could still -feel- the difference between moving normally and well...not. How do you adjudicate something like this? Creatures that are in the water and have no swim speed MUST make a swim check to move anywhere. So you have to ask the player for a swim check if they continue to try and move.

Sorry, but all of your objections are addressed by the fact that the spell is a powerful illusion that will show them whatever they expect for tactile, olfactory, auditory, and visual input. Feeling bubbles, hearing clinking armor . . . even using the landscape as a reference point to check movement speed involves those very senses.

I think it is a very creative idea, and very evil at that. However to actually try to use a tactic like this on PCs in order to auto-drown them is a very very bad idea. There are just so many variables and little issues. Good way to have your players walk out on you IMO.

Well, that may be so. But that is a separate concern from whether or not it is rules-legal.

 

[Shayuri]

**Sorry, but all of your objections are addressed by the fact that the spell is a powerful illusion that will show them whatever they expect for tactile, olfactory, auditory, and visual input. Feeling bubbles, hearing clinking armor . . . even using the landscape as a reference point to check movement speed involves those very senses. **

I disagree. We're not talking senses here, we're talking physical reality. You can make someone see, hear, smell...even taste and feel a wall...but no illusion will stop someone from walking through the wall. No saving throw needed. Illusion fails.

Don't get me wrong. I love illusions, and use them often...but there are ways they work, and ways they don't. You have to be smart about using them so the weaknesses are covered. Making an illusion of water being air is like making an illusion of Jello being air. There's clear signs that -this- air is not -right-. Is it obvious what's happening? No...but it's obvious SOMETHING is. That, in my book, is worth a disbelief roll at the very least.

Prior to taking a breath. And I'd rule it that way if I were GM'ing too, so no accusations that I'm just a spoiled player who's GM never challenged him.

 

[Jhaelen]

A trend I'm seeing in some of the posts is something I've noticed over the years in D&D in general, and something I'm guilty of myself. In most campaigns, Illusions tend to be treated weakly. There's a reason very few people play illusionists, its always been one of D&D's red-headed step-children. If we treat an illusion as a simple a moving picture, we're doing them a great injustice. Too many DM's and Players dismiss the school of illusion, thinking it weak. It isn't weak, it’s simply the lack of imagination of the people using it and DM'ng it.

You're right. Well, sort of. There is a certain trend in D&D. However the trend is to get rid of open-ended spells and 'creative' uses of spells that cause the spells to be more powerful than other, clearly-defined spells of the same level.
Mirage Arcana is on the same level as Cloudkill, for example, and it's one level higher than Phantasmal Killer. So you're right: It really should be able to do 'something' that is similarly effective.
Maybe you could look at the 3rd level 'Crisis of Breath' power for an inspiration how to rule this one.

I still have a problem with the proposed scenario and disagree that it will work as you think. To me, the problem is that it's not clearly defined, what the limitations of your tactile senses are. What is an illusion that is real to your sense of touch able to do?

It is definitely not able to affect your sense of gravity. This has absolutely nothing to do with your sense of touch!

A different example might make this clearer:
Create an illusory bridge over a chasm with a glamer spell. What will this bridge do? We know it doesn't support any weight, since it cannot affect gravity in any way. The only thing it does is, it seems to offer resistance if you reach out with your hand or foot to touch it.
Now what happens if a character tries to cross it?

I'd compare the tactile effect of an illusion to a VR glove: If you 'grab' a virtual item, it seems to offer some resistance. The force feedback is sufficient to tell you the difference between touching or not touching it. But it will not keep you from closing your hand (but see below...). If the item was real, you'd crush it. Since you don't, it's now become obvious it is not real.

Another example would be an illusory wall. It may seem real to your tentative touch but if someone pushes you 'against' it, you'll fall through. The force of inertia is unaffected by the glamer, so it breaks the illusion. However, if you were trying to, say, jump through the wall, and you didn't make your will save, then you might unintentionally jump short because your brain tells you, there's a wall. But it won't stop unvoluntary movements because this is not something that your brain can control.

So, long story short: For me it is clear that a water-filled cave has too many elements that are different from an air-filled cave to fool anyone entering it unless the illusion spell used to convey it is of the shadow variety and thus partly real. I can see how a DM might rule differently, but that's the way I see it.